Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#41

Post by wyclif » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

GW150914 wrote: post #37

wyclif wrote: post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

I don’t think it has anything to do with so-called PC or women, it’s just unprofessional behavior and tech has gone from people in a garage to the leaders on the market in that same time. Tech grew up, became a profession, and perforce people involved have had to grow up too. It has literally nothing to do with the usual culture war bullshit that gets paraded around. It’s sort of tragic that some people have so littl…

That doesn't sound plausible to me. Tech has been "grown up" in terms of professionalism for a long time. What didn't catch up was emotional intelligence and workplace ethos. What is new is that people aren't going to tolerate Linus ranting at them and their colleagues and cussing them out anymore like in the old days. And I'm sticking to my guns, thinking that a lot of this has to do with a more diverse workplace (and the pressure doesn't have to come from the LKML, but from the larger software engineering ethos).

Linus is a very smart guy, and I'm glad he's accepted that he needs to change. He should be lauded for that.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#42

Post by Mononokay » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

Leszek wrote: post #4

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

He could, and still can. Literally nothing's stopping him other than a personal decision to subjectively improve his behavior.

You can absolutely be rude and insulting as long as you're right.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#43

Post by _wldu » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

Way to go Linus... this is a great lesson for all of us!

It's easy to get caught-up in the heat of the moment and say and do things that we regret. We've all done it. It's part of being human. The key is to realize it, apologize and do better.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#44

Post by craftyguy » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

vertline3 wrote: post #39

I got the feeling reading that, that Torvald is burned out and frustrated. I know as a kid helping father with a project, sometimes he could be a bit frustrated, maybe I wasn't grabbing the correct size tool, or holding the flashlight in the right place. Maybe Linus feels like that?

He specifically said he wasn't burned out. I agree that he does sound frustrated, though maybe with himself more than with any particular folks.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#45

Post by RyJones » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

Linus and I draw our paychecks from the same place: The Linux Foundation. I've only been there three and a half years, but the "no brilliant assholes" line in the hiring process has always rung hollow.

Glad to see this is being addressed.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#46

Post by antirez » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

wyclif wrote: post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

Not sure if this is the case because Linus always appeared to go over the limit even to the most old style, cold and technology focused engineers. You may not get into the empathy thing and yet be able to avoid replying in certain wrong ways, keeping the reply focused on the technical points, without attacking the human being and so forth. Moreover to be honest I don't even think that the way he used to handle it guaranteed the best technological outcome too, since some soft touch is needed in order to spur people to do their best.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#47

Post by blindwatchmaker » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

Sharlin wrote: post #29

A certain sort of ruthlessness and lack of empathy, accompanied by having an extraordinarily driven personality, certainly seems to often make things happen (see also: Steve Jobs). The ages-old question is – is it worth it? Do ends justify the means?

People have been able to build successful organizations without being abrasive dickheads to their colleagues and subordinates all the time. I think it's a false dichotomy.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#48

Post by calcifer » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

Nasrudith wrote: post #33

Leszek wrote: post #4

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

Is that really a myth though? Being surly and right can be workable indefinitely. As opposed to success via being polite and flattering while being wrong. Fundamentally they would be a parasite. Not a dichotomous extreme though in that it is better not to be rude unless it is called for. And rudeness can be very called for in response to evil.

> As opposed to success via being polite and flattering while being wrong.

> And rudeness can be very called for in response to evil.

You have constructed quite the strawman to argue against the myth, well done.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#49

Post by xor1 » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 9:05 PM UTC

GW150914 wrote: post #37

wyclif wrote: post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

I don’t think it has anything to do with so-called PC or women, it’s just unprofessional behavior and tech has gone from people in a garage to the leaders on the market in that same time. Tech grew up, became a profession, and perforce people involved have had to grow up too. It has literally nothing to do with the usual culture war bullshit that gets paraded around. It’s sort of tragic that some people have so littl…

Tech has been a profession longer than you or I have been alive.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#50

Post by chickenfries » Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 9:05 PM UTC

wyclif wrote: post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

Men deserve to be treated with respect too. I'm a man, and I would absolutely quit any job where someone talked to me the way LBT did in his emails. I'm sure someone reading this thinks that makes me a snowflake.