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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#121

Post by wolfgke »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #106

The other huge news here, both for Linux and for numerous other communities trying to make similar changes: The most recent commit, right before the release, deletes Linux's "Code of Conflict" and replaces it with a real Code of Conduct, the Contributor Covenant. https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin... https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu... Quoting the commit message:…

> It just means not letting things turn heated or hateful, and treating people well.

Different people have very different beliefs what is to be considered "heated", "hateful" and "treating well" or not.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#122

Post by herpderperator »

While I am glad this happened, I am surprised. I truly would not have expected Linus to ever write something like this. I am curious how this can happen so suddenly. Have people not tried to convince him that he can be critical without being insulting many times before? What was different this time?

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#123

Post by [deleted] »

craftyguy wrote: post #44
vertline3 wrote: post #39

I got the feeling reading that, that Torvald is burned out and frustrated. I know as a kid helping father with a project, sometimes he could be a bit frustrated, maybe I wasn't grabbing the correct size tool, or holding the flashlight in the right place. Maybe Linus feels like that?

He specifically said he wasn't burned out. I agree that he does sound frustrated, though maybe with himself more than with any particular folks.

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#124

Post by noobermin »

unimpressive wrote: post #82
Leszek wrote: post #4

Maybe this will finally end the myth that "you can be rude and insulting as long as you're right" that people seem to attribute to Linus's outbursts

I'm mostly parsing this as external pressure forcing him to change, rather than a comment on the value of the behavior one way or the other. I suspect on net this is going to be seen as martyrdom, with a vocal minority of people who will bring it up in every conversation as a suppression tactic. EDIT: That having been said, my personal opinion is that Linus could stand to tone it down a bit. He often goes beyond "unr…

Of course, no one is suggesting he become a pushover. I don't think it's really that hard to not be a weakling and at the same time not be a douche. It's not a "gray line" either, unless the extremes are either 31 Kelvin and 1000 KeV.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#125

Post by woodandsteel »

wolfgke wrote: post #69
cowmoo728 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can be ruthless without being abusive. Linus had effectively ultimate power over the kernel for quite some time, so he could have said things like: "I disagree with this patch and I'm not going to merge it. It does these things wrong, and this line of reasoning makes no sense. Change these things and explain the reasoning behind this and I'll look at it again." Most of his rants that I've read could have been…

> People can be ruthless without being abusive. Everybody has a different conviction about what is abusive and what is not.

>Everybody has a different conviction about what is abusive and what is not.

Correct. That means that you should, if possible, 1) try to communicate in a manner that most people won't consider abusive 2) adjust to the individual when needed. All of which Linus is saying he wasn't doing.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#126

Post by ufo »

torstenvl wrote: post #91
ufo wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like Jobs was successful despite being abusive, not because of it.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts in more detail, because I have a different perspective and have a hard time trying to see things from your point of view. From my perspective, people react to social condemnation of their actions. When someone does something incompetent, and they are gently corrected, that sends a certain message. When someone does something incompetent and they are lambasted , that sends the m…

It is one thing to reprimand people in public and another thing to be emotionally abusive about it.

Steve Jobs is famous for being absolutely confident of himself (even for things that he didn't really know about) and for expecting the impossible from his employees (and being verbally abusive about it). This is a recipe for surrounding yourself with yes-men and for making your employees behave defensively when they are around you.

Another thing is that people, like most animals, are better encouraged by positive reinforcement than by punishment.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#127

Post by JoshTriplett »

wolfgke wrote: post #121
JoshTriplett wrote: post #106

The other huge news here, both for Linux and for numerous other communities trying to make similar changes: The most recent commit, right before the release, deletes Linux's "Code of Conflict" and replaces it with a real Code of Conduct, the Contributor Covenant. https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin... https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu... Quoting the commit message:…

> It just means not letting things turn heated or hateful, and treating people well. Different people have very different beliefs what is to be considered "heated", "hateful" and "treating well" or not.

Hence writing it down explicitly to establish a common understanding.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#129

Post by blt »

wyclif wrote: post #31

As someone familiar with LBT's mailing list rhetoric since the early days, I'm guessing a big part of what's happening here is that LBT hasn't changed the way he communicates but the rest of the world has moved on. And let's face it, the engineering and programming world has gotten a lot more politically correct—I think the main factor driving this is the increasing presence of women in technology. What I mean is tha…

False. "The percentage of CS-degree holders who were women peaked in the 1980s at 34% and has been on a downward trend ever since" [1]. Women do not have an increasing presence in terms of population. Maybe the real phenomenon is that women are no longer accepting the culture that tends to form in male-dominated fields.

[1] http://newsroom.ucla.edu/stories/cracking-the-code%3A-why-ar...

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#130

Post by rusk »

ufo wrote: post #68
Sharlin wrote: post #29

A certain sort of ruthlessness and lack of empathy, accompanied by having an extraordinarily driven personality, certainly seems to often make things happen (see also: Steve Jobs). The ages-old question is – is it worth it? Do ends justify the means?

I feel like Jobs was successful despite being abusive, not because of it.

I kind of feel that he wasn’t successful just because he was abusive, but it was probably a factor in terms of how he was able to run his businesses the way he did.
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