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In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

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Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#131
There is always so much vitriol on HN about these kinds of announcements.

I've never understood why. Google presumably has lots of data and feedback from people using Inbox, and determined that it wasn't useful enough or widespread enough to justify ongoing investment. Why is this surprising or shocking? This happens all the time in commercial and open source software.

The internet is great, but unfortunately has the ability to agglomerate individual moments of otherwise transient irritation into a pyroclastic flow of outrage.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#132
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google's shutdown of products and APIs seems to have led to critical level of trust loss amongst developers and influencers. Some companies have to care what developers think. (Few, to be frank; developers overestimate their importance.) Many companies have to care what "influencers" think. But not all, and Google is not part of that "most". Google doesn't have to give a shit because everyone uses Google. They are…

You don’t need goodwill until you need it, and then it’s almost impossible to garner. How does that saying go? When you’re on top of the world you can do no wrong, when you’re down you can do no right? A lot of giant companies have to learn this the hard way, probably due to institutional inertia, apathy, lack of foresight, and the reality that today’s C-levels will probably be gone before that shit hits the fan.

> You don’t need goodwill until you need it, and then it’s almost impossible to garner.

This is the key. Google has my "business," but I'm also sick of it. The moment there's a really valid competitor - and these days, I'm starting to look at protonmail - I'm gone. The same stickiness that kept me with them will keep me gone.

I really don't think I'm alone in that.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#133
post #16

I used to be a Google fan boy but am starting to dislike them more and more. This, they killed off reader and the creepy data collection they do is why I've started to look into alternatives for their products - anyone have any good suggestions?

You can do it bit by bit. Start by switching to Firefox on desktop and mobile (if you're an Android user). Install Firefox Multi-Account Containers to sandbox Google and other surveillance capitalism products. Switch to another provider for your email, contacts and calendars. I chose Fastmail - it's adequate. The best thing I can say about it is that it has a suite comparable to Google mail, calendar and contacts and…

Thanks for sharing. I think I need to organize myself to be able to walk away from google and it's all-encompassing experience and grasp, and it's not always easy to make the first step.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#134

This is puzzling, as Google pushed Inbox pretty hard. I was under the impression that the Gmail interface would be decommissioned, and Inbox would be the future.

If you've worked in large orgs it makes sense. They had a strategic priority a while back to 'make mail good on mobile' ... whereas now they are folding it all back into the gmail umbrella because the overall strategic impetus would be to be gmail founded. So, short term strategy now important with the longer term issues of product portfolio. Collapse the 'good bits' of inbox into Gmail and move forward. You have to…

"It still blows my mind how companies with billions of dollars to burn get UI wrong. Like the first Windows 10."

It's much harder to build a UI that a billion people like than one that a hundred people like.

Startups have the luxury of being able to pick their customers. They can (and should) make the UI really, really tailored to their initial customers, because that's all they've got. Nail that and the initial customers evangelize the product, and bring new customers in.

Big companies do not have that luxury. Most peoples' desires are contradictory; some people like things one way, other people like it another way, some people want it configurable just the way they want it, most people get confused and leave if you put in too many knobs and configuration options. When you're doing UI design for a billion-dollar company, you have to shoot for the middle-ground that will piss off the fewest people. That's invariably something that doesn't make people all that excited either.

I was involved in 4 UI redesigns for Google Search, one as the first engineer, two as a tech lead, and one as a consultant. Usually the version we launched was a pale shadow of some of the cooler ideas that the UI designers came up with, and made nobody particularly excited, including the people who designed it. But that's the reality of serving over a billion people. Every feature cut was cut because it would make the design unusable for some fraction of the userbase; every misfeature added was added because somebody really wanted it, and in most cases we had the metrics to prove it.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#135
Meanwhile in a different topic, people are criticizing Google for the confusion of having way too many chat services.

I think in the end, Google doesn't want more than one email service. If Inbox showed enough growth to someday replace Gmail, it might have had a chance.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Indian engineers your favourite coolies that will do the dirty work of keeping your systems running after you've lost interest in them ?

Isn't that were US companies are outsourcing to? Why would Google use expensive Silicon Valley-engineers to do bugfixes on a product they'd rather cancel? Are you denying there's a price difference?

I can tell you that I am going through the experience for the 3rd time now of my entire team being let go in favor for engineers in India.

So far it seems to be like this.

1) Have a big spin up in the US. Create a new product in 1 year or less. 2) Stabilize the product over the 2nd year. 3) Slowly lay off US engineers and support teams in favor for guys in India.

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with Indian engineers. The problem seems to be management cares about headcount and not quality. It would be one thing if we were being replaced by better engineers, but that is not the case.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#137
The part that gets me the most about killing Inbox and forcing users to go back to Gmail is the accumulation of Pinned emails.

I was happy to oblige to using pins when I transitioned from Gmail -> Inbox. Stars were replaced with pins but there is no direct mapping. But now that Inbox is dead, the years of pinned emails are effectively useless when they should've been starred in Gmail. It's a frustrating experience for users especially when this is not the first time for Google.

This is why as an Android Developer, I'm in the majority community opinion believing that Dart/Flutter/Fuschia shouldn't be trusted. These products/dev tools are going to be in perpetual beta and not worth taking the risk of going to prod with.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#138
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My company switched from AWS to Azure without considering Google's Cloud at all, and the loss of trust is the reason.

Should have switched to bare metal, things like AWS cost a ton more than you realize, it just looks like a good deal because you have smaller cost up front. But in the long run managing your own systems at places like Softlayer can save you a bundle. EDIT: I don't care about downvotes, but if you are going to do it at least leave a comment of why you think I am wrong.

> managing your own systems at places like Softlayer

The problem is, at a place like SL, they're not actually your own systems.

> can save you a bundle

It can, and usually does provide at least some savings, but it still comes with both the obvious form of vendor lock-in, and a subtler disadvantage, which is that you're limited by SL's specific hardware and engineering (including network) choices.

The real (performance and/or cost) magic of running ones own servers comes from custom combination of commodity ingredients, not merely lack of virtualization.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This! This is a huge deal. Searching for stuff in my business inbox is important . If you can't trust search, then you have to manually walk through those emails. And because Gmail 'clusters' threads together, it's often impossible to find something. This has disrupted me on a few occasions. If you can't trust your email ... Gmail team: make 'search' by default more inclusive. Err on the side of including stuff. It's…

Exactly. What google doesn't seem to 'get' is that email + searchable database = life. I email stuff to myself, or bcc: myself, all the time. If all emails were in a searchable database, perhaps with automatic clustering to group associations, all very fast -- that's killer sticky. The emails, plus stuff on gdocs, gdrive, etc, all fully searchable? Gold. (Yes, non-trivial privacy concern, but no personal data should…

Facebook’s search is bad too... so nobody has mastered personal search.

Re: In killing Inbox, Google takes another swipe at its most passionate users

#140

I don't think Google cares whether its users are "passionate" or not. They've reached market saturation, so further spread of their products through word-of-mouth (via passionate users and such) isn't a goal at this time. With regard to their Internet service products, their goal seem to be to monetize the user base effectively, while avoiding wasting funds on unnecessary developer time. To that end, many of their pr…

Precisely. I can be as pissed at Google as they come, ready to pick up my pitchfork, but at the end of the month when I spent $120,000 on adwords and made $280,000 in profit as a return, I will gladly tattoo Google logo on my chest. The scary part is they will sunset gmail eventually. I know from someone inside “L team” that founders hate how much headache gmail brings for such little return. Initially started at the…

Not a chance. Gmail is the gateway to their cloud storage and office products. There is not way they will get rid of free Gmail. Maybe cut back on the free storage. But even that...
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