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Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

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Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#71

Post by huhtenberg »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #55
huhtenberg wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's the thing. There's no clear reason for Russians to so publicly go after this guy. They gain absolutely nothing from it. Whatever the "message" this was supposed to send, it's unclear.

> Whatever the "message" this was supposed to send, it's unclear Large numbers of former KGB and FSB agents live outside Russia. These well-publicised killings send a clear message to them about the consequences of spilling—or threatening to spill—Putin’s beans.

Yeah, that's the TV line.

This guy lived quietly in the UK and had no "Putin's beans" to spill. He did blow cover of several hundred Russian agents, but he did time for that in Russia and then he was exchanged. It is possible it was a long-delayed payback from the GRU, but, again, there is no reason for it to be made that publicly. He could've choked on a pound coin and everyone who needed to know would've gotten the message. But the way it stands, the only discernible message here is "don't do any more spy exchanges with Russia".

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#72

Post by dpwm »

TomMckenny wrote: post #21
heavenlyblue wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

His post and the spam of others like it are to invite enough controversy that this story disappears from the front page. And since I was obliged to post to point that out, I'll continue... The UK is _not_ central. So now we instantly distrust the Swiss and Dutch secret services too. Who, we're to believe, framed these fellows yet punished them with nothing more than sending them back to Russia. If Westerners are now…

> I hope the admins use it as a honey pot for locating shills.

There are shills on all sides.[0]

Many of the people you are calling shills are actually doubtful of the narrative put forward by a security cabal involved in one of the most pervasive and under-handed spying programmes [1].

Part of the reason for this is because that narrative is actually inconsistent with earlier versions of itself.

Those who disagree with that narrative are most likely not Russian shills, they may just be able to spot an inconsistent narrative based on evidence drip-fed to the media and refuse to believe it.

There are two Russian citizens who are now effectively limited to countries with no extradition treaty with the UK or its allies unless they are willing to face a trial that has no reasonable prospect of being fair. [2]

> If Westerners are now going to consistently favor a conspicuously monstrous dictatorship over their own defense mechanisms then their story is over.

If Westerners are going to support trial by lynch mob and trial by media with carefully-controlled evidence and a strong hint of xenophobic nationalism and a trust-our-state-sanctioned-murderers attitude then we will be the ones to suffer the consequences as the farce of the "superiority" of "western values" is truly exposed.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Threat_Research_Intellig...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora

[2] They have had a trial by media and been found guilty.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#73

Post by AlexeyParamonov »

Grue3 wrote: post #60
AlexeyParamonov wrote: post #27

Yeah, we, Russians, are so stupid so decided to kill the guy who was in our prison several years ago (why did not we do that then?) with a top Soviet chemical weapon which is like droping a nuclear bomb to kill a single person. There is a information war happening to desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more.

>desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more Russia Today does that by itself just fine.

One may or may not like what another person is talking. If you don't like what others a speaking of that's not the reason to make them shut up. But RT is forced to close is UK and US. "Democracy" in action.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#74

Post by lucozade »

AlexeyParamonov wrote: post #27

Yeah, we, Russians, are so stupid so decided to kill the guy who was in our prison several years ago (why did not we do that then?) with a top Soviet chemical weapon which is like droping a nuclear bomb to kill a single person. There is a information war happening to desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more.

> why did not we do that then?

Because that would have been stupid. Why kill a spy when you can exchange him for your spies and then kill him. Which is what they (almost) did. Quite sensible really in a "fuck you world" kind of way.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#75

Post by coldtea »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #25
keyme wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"which side are you on" == exactly what the guy above said about people like you reviving the cold war. What sides?

The sides where Russia is happily occupying and destabilizing the regions which were previously under their area of influence. And the fact is that most of the Russian people feel quite nationalistic about their previous "glory", so they'll eat up whatever Putin is doing to them indirectly through NATO sanctions.

>The sides where Russia is happily occupying and destabilizing the regions which were previously under their area of influence

So, the sides where Russia has been surrounded by ever closer NATO bases (post cold-war), and those countries are used to put pressure on it, while the news constantly bombard western audiences with "enemy du jour" coverage?

Where foreign countries constantly meddle with its internal goings-on (with embargoes, sanctions, supporting opposition parties, funding NGOs and "independent" organizations, and good old "Voice of America" style efforts), to establish friendly lackeys in power like Yeltsin, to sell the country's assets wholesale to them?

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#76

Post by JumpCrisscross »

huhtenberg wrote: post #71
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever the "message" this was supposed to send, it's unclear Large numbers of former KGB and FSB agents live outside Russia. These well-publicised killings send a clear message to them about the consequences of spilling—or threatening to spill—Putin’s beans.

Yeah, that's the TV line. This guy lived quietly in the UK and had no "Putin's beans" to spill. He did blow cover of several hundred Russian agents, but he did time for that in Russia and then he was exchanged. It is possible it was a long-delayed payback from the GRU, but, again, there is no reason for it to be made that publicly. He could've choked on a pound coin and everyone who needed to know would've gotten the…

> that's the TV line

As well as the well-substantiated conclusion of several international investigations. Same reasoning for Litvinenko’s polonium tea and North Korea’s nerve agent assassination.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#77

Post by megous »

heavenlyblue wrote: post #26
kushti wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your "logic", basically "choose your side and believe without questioning" is not appropriate for any more or less educated person, I need to say.

You choose a side based on the environment you support. The fact is that those "educated people" make uneducated disappointed in their own government, and Russia is happy to take advantage of that fact. The problem isn't the truth, the problem is the platform where that truth is practically used against your own system of values.

Your argument is suffering from being too abstract, I guess. It would help if you used more examples. Many people here are probably not aware of modus operandi of the Putin regime's propaganda and I'm only semi-aware as well.

I can see one example of what you're talking about and that is how Putin co-opted some prominent western anti-US-imperialists in service of his own agenda and his own imperial ambitions (setting up permanent bases in other countries, exploiting natural resources by means of war, killing innocent people by thousands, pretty much anything anti-imperialists abhor about the US). Enemy of my enemy... I guess. These people then talk about how Russia was invited by Bashar, or whatever and that makes it ok for it to bomb people there for years - but this is usually unstated, you just sense the implied sense of legitimacy and lack of criticism for Russia.

Many of these people have some followers that then repeats their talking points, or defer to their authority.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#78

Post by lucozade »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #70
azangru wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, so what you are basically saying is that the Russians intended this assassination to be discovered and demonstrated to be a poisoning attack?

Given how these stories over the poisoning have played out it certainly looks that way. The "cover" story is comically poor, and they have plenty of people intelligent enough to do better. So short of Putin calling a press conference saying "Yup, we did it" it couldn't have been telegraphed much clearer.

I agree. This is by far the most likely rationale. They've basically taken a leaf out of the Mossad playbook.

I'm a bit surprised they don't have Shaggy playing in the background during the press conferences.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#79

Post by pwned1 »

AlexeyParamonov wrote: post #46
beatlebum wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You chose the wrong pill my friend

I don't take pills, I live here and all the Skripal story is looking like a bullshit to me, that's my point of view so you can see not only what your mass media is feeding you. Russia is gaining power and other countries don't want that, so come up with ideas to blame Russia in all sins.

Why not "gain power" in a constructive way that benefits humanity, instead of always taking the side of tyrants and dictators?

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#80

Post by [deleted] »

AlexeyParamonov wrote: post #42
megous wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not use chemical weapons? Kim's brother was assassinated by VX for example. So it's not really out of character for autocrats. Chemical weapons are easy to use in quantities that ensure limited effect.

Much easier and quiet way is to find a criminal guy who would kill Skripal for money and make it look like a robbery.

[deleted]
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