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Millennials and Mainframes: How to Bridge the Gap

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Re: Millennials and Mainframes: How to Bridge the Gap

#121

Post by s73v3r_ »

eikenberry wrote: post #73
TomK32 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was worth reading. capitalism's fixation on quarterly reports is ruining successful companies like DST.

That's not capitalism, it's our culture around capitalism. There is nothing inherent to capitalism that stresses short term growth vs. long term growth. For example much of the push for short term growth comes from the stock market, but the stock market (or public ownership at all) is in no way required for capitalism to work (and IMO it would probably be better without it).

Sorry, but that is entirely captialism. You don't get to take core aspects of the system and say it's not really part of the system.

Re: Millennials and Mainframes: How to Bridge the Gap

#122

Post by CaliforniaKarl »

One comment out of that was interesting to me:

>And it’s not all COBOL anymore. Today mainframe programmers use Python, Linux, node.js, Java, blockchain.

node.js on a mainframe? That doesn’t strike me as being something that can uninterrupted for years.

Re: Millennials and Mainframes: How to Bridge the Gap

#123

Post by nikanj »

tetrep wrote: post #64
IE6 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non mainframe programmer I found your anecdote about windows reliability contrary to the experience I have had over the past few decades so I am not sure how accurate the rest of your post is.

Here's my favorite: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/2553549/all-the-tcp... article about it: https://blog.ctm-it.com/it-support/blogs/matt-cannon/2013/49... edit: If you want to be especially cynical, you can note that this wasn't discovered for a while because everyone running Windows reboots it regularly because of its notorious instability issues (the bug was found in 2013 and dates back to at least Vista…

That bug is over five years old. Are you implying there haven't been similar, or worse, bugs in other operating systems since?

Windows used to suck, but it's somewhat unfair to judge the platform of 2018 because Vista of 2006 was bad for you.

Re: Millennials and Mainframes: How to Bridge the Gap

#124

Post by nikanj »

pjc50 wrote: post #67
IE6 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non mainframe programmer I found your anecdote about windows reliability contrary to the experience I have had over the past few decades so I am not sure how accurate the rest of your post is.

https://www.cnet.com/news/windows-may-crash-after-49-7-days/ Windows has improved since then, but it's still a very brave person that would have a single business-critical Windows machine without a few scheduled maintenance and reboot periods every year.

That bug is from 2002. Do you really think it's a solid reason to not host business-critical things on Windows in 2018?

Re: Millennials and Mainframes: How to Bridge the Gap

#125

Post by NoPicklez »

I work for a large consulting firm and I do a lot of work helping large government and private companies perform data migrations away from AS/400 mainframe environments.

Many people will say that there is a shortage of skills when it comes to mainframe environments, that might be true, however the need for such skills is diminishing significantly.

Re: Millennials and Mainframes: How to Bridge the Gap

#126

Post by mmt »

nikanj wrote: post #123
tetrep wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my favorite: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/2553549/all-the-tcp... article about it: https://blog.ctm-it.com/it-support/blogs/matt-cannon/2013/49... edit: If you want to be especially cynical, you can note that this wasn't discovered for a while because everyone running Windows reboots it regularly because of its notorious instability issues (the bug was found in 2013 and dates back to at least Vista…

That bug is over five years old. Are you implying there haven't been similar, or worse, bugs in other operating systems since? Windows used to suck, but it's somewhat unfair to judge the platform of 2018 because Vista of 2006 was bad for you.

To be fair, the overall context of the conversation isn't (all) "other operating systems" but, specifically, mainframe ones. Additionally, the GP referenced "the past few decades", which certainly includes 5 years ago.

Hopefully a mainframe expert can chime in as to whether the major mainframe OSes have included similar or worse bugs.

Re: Millennials and Mainframes: How to Bridge the Gap

#127

Post by mmt »

nikanj wrote: post #124
pjc50 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.cnet.com/news/windows-may-crash-after-49-7-days/ Windows has improved since then, but it's still a very brave person that would have a single business-critical Windows machine without a few scheduled maintenance and reboot periods every year.

That bug is from 2002. Do you really think it's a solid reason to not host business-critical things on Windows in 2018?

If mainframe reliability is what it is purported to be, then, for someone making this choice as an alternative to a mainframe, especially if they've been on it for decades already, it's a very solid reason.

It is, of course, only a proxy for the real reason, which is the engineering culture that led to the bug and/or reliability. If there's better evidence that Microsoft has drastically changed its engineering culture in favor of reliability and/or IBM has done the converse [1], it could easily trump this proxy evidence.

[1] for example, if they've included the OS developers in the layoffs they've been in the news for

Re: Millennials and Mainframes: How to Bridge the Gap

#128

Post by draw_down »

If you go into mainframes, maybe you'll end up in a niche where you can enjoy stable employment for many years to come. Or, maybe you're willingly walking into a dead end. I suspect the latter.

At any rate, it isn't clear why millennials should be expected to work on mainframes, i.e., maybe there's a good reason why they don't. Are the jobs good? Do they pay well? Are there recruiting efforts underway to get candidates in the door and explain to them why they should be excited about it, to help bridge this gap?

Engineering talent is rather supply-constrained, or so we hear. You can't just sit around writing op-eds about how the darn millennials should work on your stuff, just because your stuff happens to exist and needs engineers. What are you doing about it? The answer this article points to is conscription, which of course is silly in the context of industry.

Re: Millennials and Mainframes: How to Bridge the Gap

#129

Post by Ws32ok »

Fine. I want to learn how to maintain/write software for a mainframe.

How do I start? Can I get access to one? Can I build up something I can learn on? What is the best path for doing this? How would I usefully gain enough experience to get into this?

I have linux, python, c, but unsurprisingly can’t afford 30 million (or whatever) on a mainframe.

I know about Hercules, but I’d only be able to run Linux. Is that right? Is that useful?

My feeling is that I’d need experience to get a job, but I can’t get experience without a job. Seems like the whole shortage is a lie. If there was a shortage I’d be able to find various organisations falling over themselves to help me into mainframes.

Re: Millennials and Mainframes: How to Bridge the Gap

#130

Post by mr_toad »

Ws32ok wrote: post #129

Fine. I want to learn how to maintain/write software for a mainframe. How do I start? Can I get access to one? Can I build up something I can learn on? What is the best path for doing this? How would I usefully gain enough experience to get into this? I have linux, python, c, but unsurprisingly can’t afford 30 million (or whatever) on a mainframe. I know about Hercules, but I’d only be able to run Linux. Is that righ…

When industry X complains about shortage of Y what they actually want is for someone else to pay for the training of a bunch of Y, so they can hire them for peanuts and dispose of them at will.
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