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Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

nytimes.com

611–620 of 632 posts

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#611
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. In nature, the strongest lion has all the mates, while the second strongest has none.

This is actually untrue. The resultant daughter cannot mate with her own father, so she will mate with the next most suitable male. Furthermore, lions function in pride groups with territories. The daughters would need to break off into their own territories eventually, where they would need males. Furthermore, it’s pretty common for brothers to join together to be stronger than the lone strongest male. Your example…

Is it not true that there's only one mating male in each pride, and that the others are exiled into bachelor groups?

In any case, there are many examples in nature where a small percentage of the males do a very disproportionate amount of the mating.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#612
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any constructive suggestions to add, or just cynicism?

An observation of the situation is more constructive than such thought-stopping questions, even if it doesn't offer a solution. Spotting a problem usually precedes solutions anyway.

Its not a thought stopping question, I'm asking you to put some thought into it and propose some solutions.

Or at least make your complaint a little specific, like what was tried, what didn't work, etc. As it stands, it's just whining about the general state of things, which I would say isn't actually very useful, unless the goal is to mope collectively.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I understand it, minimum wage helps people in employer markets. Prices would go down to zero or at least the minimum cost of living if people would fully compete for jobs in markets with more workers than jobs available. Inevitably, the market for unskilled labor is an employer market because there will always be a supply of workers unless each and everybody has a job. However skilled somebody is, if he doe…

> minimum wage helps people in employer markets No. Minimum wage helps software developers to take away jobs from low skilled workers (because it forces employers to automate low-paying jobs). Most of workers are hurt by minimum wage limit. The higher minimum wage limit is - the more workers are hurt by it. It does NOT matter if job market is "employer market" or "candidate market". The impact of "minimum wage limit"…

Only the work of those who create value below minimum wage has to be automated. I agree with you that their jobs have to be automated by software developers, or restructured in another way. E.g. delivery or Uber drivers can earn less than minimum wage because they are often not paid for their time.

However, every other job can be continued. Why should people be fired if employers can still make a profit? Minimum wage is like a hidden union that ensures that unskilled workers don't outbid themselves.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#614
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s more complicated than that though. In Denmark where I live, we have trouble staffing certain industry jobs. Jobs like gutting, freezing and packing fish or general slaughter houses. It used to be that these were low paying jobs, packed with immigrants. Since you need a social security number to work, and we’re rather good at finding people who cheat the system, illegal immigration workers isn’t really a thing in…

> Anyway eventually regulation caught up and ended the low pay loopholes. So now a job at those factories pays half a million kroner a year, or more than I earn as a senior IT-architect. I think this is an important point that many people seem to gloss over when discussing what humans _deserve_ to be paid. Many believe the uniqueness of a skill set or how much physical stress is inherent to a position should be the o…

> Which leads me to wonder if there are any societal changes we could make in order to nudge salaries to reflect when a job is mentally abusive. Similar to how pay typically reflects when a job is physically abusive.

A basic income would work here. If people aren't forced to take a job out of economic necessity then unpleasant jobs will need to pay more to attract people to do them.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#615

I broke out of poverty. Why can't they do it too? It was a simple thing for me, a combination of studying hard, focusing on my future and the death of my father. You see, my parents were both fishermen. It's a grueling, painful job that can destroy your body as you age leaving you with back problems and forcing you to retire early. It also paid poorly and had a lot of risks. Which unfortunately for us, resulted in th…

I believe it's called the hindsight bias.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#616
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the system should be structured so that no one is ever behind anyone else in the "rat race"?

From the starting point? Absolutely. That's essentially equality of opportunity in a nutshell. What you do with what you've got from a relatively equal starting point is up to you.

So you'd advocate for eliminating inheritance, free association between people, the choice of where to live, etc? And if you wanted to get more extreme, as a sibling mentions, eliminate heritable differences?

Or do you just mean things like free education for all?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there are only 19 bones for every 20 dogs, then it doesn't matter how good a bone hunter they all are there will always be one dog disappointed and the other 19 will be grateful for the bone no matter how thin and weedy it is. Or, if the dogs are intelligent, they could split those 19 bones to 20 pieces...

That wouldn't make them intelligent at all. This idea that there should always be fairness and equality in existence is very naive.

Or maybe they realize that the 20th dog, who receives no bone and has to watch the other 19 enjoy theirs, might become angry and start causing problems. The 19 dogs, realizing that group performance and cohesion is far more important than 1/19th of their individual bones, all donate a small portion (1/19) of their own bones.

Conflict is adverted, and every dog continues to work together, as they all feel like participants in a mutually beneficial relationship between themselves as individuals, and the group as a whole.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#618
post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya, but my point though is that if you were willing to, you absolutely could have worked hard and achieved all that you have. Yes, the chunk of money you received helped - but it didn't enable . You did what you did on your own, and you would have and probably would have done it with or without that money.

[not OP] I believe that without proper financial aid, it may not be possible for everyone to pursue further education. It's possible to do this, in fact, this is what I did; however, there is a lot more to a college degree than just the loans. You still need to be able to afford college living, food, expenses, etc., and anything which is not covered by loans each semester (which sometimes can be put on a private loan…

Ya that's totally all true. But, to my understanding, you can use college loans to pay for living expenses, and you can also get a part time job. Having a part time job through college used to be quite common.

I don't doubt that it's substantially harder for people who lack financial resources, but it doesn't seem that much harder to me. It seems well within the realm of ordinary stuff that is is a bit more difficult. I admit that maybe there is an aspect of it that I don't understand, but what I see here is both you and this guy seeming to say it was difficult, but then you both managed to do it.

My perspective on a lot of this is that there is a whole generation of kids who went to college with the promise that what they majored in was irrelevant - that they should pursue their passion and things would just work out, because the important thing was going to college. So they majored in things like English, Philosophy, and Psychology. And then they graduated with those degrees expecting the world to pay them a comfortable six figure salary. Except that nobody wanted those skills. Even worse, they took on debt to do it. So upon graduation with a fine mastery of medieval English literature, they found themselves saddled with debt and no job prospects.

People like you and the other guy in this thread, on the other hand, did exactly the right thing. You took on a level of debt that was commensurate with the earning power of the degree you obtained. That's how this is supposed to work. You look at the value you can get out of the degree, and you compare that to the cost of obtaining it, and if a > b, you do it. That worked out for you not because you were lucky, but because you made the right decisions and you put in the effort required to realize the benefits.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#619
post #601
post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It didn't keep those people anywhere. They were free to go live as hunter-gatherers whensoever they chose. They chose not to do that, because they believed that working was a better life.

In later stages it actually did keep those people there because they either couldn't afford to leave the city without half the family starving and/or militia hired by the factory owner enforcing people stayed there.

> militia hired by the factory owner enforcing people stayed there.

That isn't capitalism.

> In later stages it actually did keep those people there because they either couldn't afford to leave the city without half the family starving

I'm not sure what that means. Cities weren't that big. Just walk out and go live on some uninhabited BLM land if you don't want to participate in the capitalist economy.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#620
post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education - sure. The only purpose these masses can serve is acting as genetic pool for picking the best and uplift them through education. A permanent caste-like system is doomed as next generation of it won't be as performing as the previous one. But we have to understand that only a small majority - a few percent - of the poor will be uplifted. The rest has to be kept at bay in one way or the other. As for fortres…

> The only purpose these masses can serve is acting as genetic pool for picking the best and uplift them through education. This is just social darwinism. Not rly a recipe for sucess I can tell ya.

But this is what every society just becomes, unless someone tries to forcibly skew it otherwise, to the detriment of economic growth, thus worsening outcomes for everyone. This isn't some 'policy' i am suggesting. This is just what the world is. See EU countries who are trying to do otherwise, only outcome is somewhat lower crime and even that is temporary because too many savage immigrants come to feed on unlimited free stuff. Their economies are hopelessly stuck.
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