A proposal to roll back exclusionary zoning would make housing more affordable • Hacker News Board

Re: A proposal to roll back exclusionary zoning would make housing more affordable

#81

Post by s0rce » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #21

s0rce wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chicken-egg problem though. If you say transit doesn't go places or doesn't run often people claim the density is too low and we need more people to use it. Can't have the same excuses just used to block everything. Just start building everything, high density housing, dedicated bus lanes, multi-level parking garages, better utilities.

> Just start building everything, high density housing, dedicated bus lanes, multi-level parking garages I'd advise against this. We did that in Madison, and before we even got very far doing this, Mother Nature started to hint to us that it might not be a good idea. Maybe there are places where you can just build Willy-Nilly. (I doubt it, but what do I know?) I suspect, however, most places are like Madison, just no…

While I'm sure there are areas where this is true, this seems like a special case. In the Bay Area some liquefaction zones and high fire risk hilly areas are likely candidates to not build on, however, I didn't suggest to build everywhere. In fact, I think we should keep open space and hilly fire-prone areas as parks, we can in fill low density areas and empty lots with high density.

Re: A proposal to roll back exclusionary zoning would make housing more affordable

#82

Post by prolikewh0a » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #12

imgabe wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is the case for a lot of the differences between the US and other countries. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as "just make the Federal government do it for everyone". The constitution limits the authority of what the Federal government can do in the US and delegates everything else to state and local governments.

Are the State governments the problem here though? From what I(not American) can tell the issue seems to be more that local residents have a surprising(to me) amount of political control over zoning on the municipal level. I guess this is all part of the American approach to the distribution of power and there are certainly good sides to this, but it also means that NIMBYs can have so much control by voting for the m…

NIMBY's have practically all of the power with zoning laws in Seattle. They have all of the money as well. We have a crazy amount of SFH right now when we have a housing crisis.

It's not like housing would become more affordable anyway, Seattle only builds luxury housing for the rich (and they're having a hard time filling these units!).

Re: A proposal to roll back exclusionary zoning would make housing more affordable

#83

Post by educationdata » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

xvedejas wrote: post #3

In Japan, zoning is handled federally; and the result is much more affordable cities. "Why Tokyo is the land of rising home construction but not prices" https://www.ft.com/content/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3... An overview of zoning practices there: http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html

Is there any data to support that Tokyo has more affordable apartment than New York?

I have seen numbers compare rental price of 1/2/3 bedroom(s) in Tokyo to New York [1,2], but I do not trust those numbers, because they do not have the size of the apartment. I think it really matters, because apartments in Tokyo could be much smaller than those in NYC. I don't have a statistics for this, but there is an example [3].

OK. I found a table of comparison by sq instead of # of bedrooms [4].

[1] https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

[2] https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/one-bedroom-apartme...

[3] https://www.lifewhereimfrom.com/lwif-x-ep4-what-is-an-averag...

[4] https://resources.realestate.co.jp/buy/average-rent-in-tokyo...

Re: A proposal to roll back exclusionary zoning would make housing more affordable

#84

Post by pcwalton » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

prolikewh0a wrote: post #79

ende wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. There’s no need to take this “all the way to the top” (ie Federal). States can easily supplant the zoning powers of their local governments.

Won't happen. The Nimbys have all of the money and can influence the votes in extraordinary ways. Look at Seattle, they won't budge and we have an enormous amount of single family housing. Our mayor is also nearly entirely useless as well, and seemingly only cares about sports teams. The amount of propaganda that would be pushed out to crush any changes to zoning would be on historic levels.

AB 2923, which overrides local zoning in order to allow BART to develop on its parking lots, recently passed both houses in California, despite NIMBY objections. And the Housing Accountability Act, which NIMBYs loathe, has long been law (and was even strengthened relatively recently).

Renters are a growing political force.

Re: A proposal to roll back exclusionary zoning would make housing more affordable

#85

Post by specialp » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

I live on Long Island, and it is expensive. Schools are funded mostly through high property taxes. It is nearly impossible to get high density housing approved for working age people. The constituents want only 55+ for complexes so they can reap the school tax benefits without more students.

So this in effect keeps affordable housing out as developers either build 3000+ sq foot "luxury homes" or 55+ communities.

Re: A proposal to roll back exclusionary zoning would make housing more affordable

#86

Post by dionidium » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

burlesona wrote: post #33

xvedejas wrote: post #3

In Japan, zoning is handled federally; and the result is much more affordable cities. "Why Tokyo is the land of rising home construction but not prices" https://www.ft.com/content/023562e2-54a6-11e6-befd-2fc0c26b3... An overview of zoning practices there: http://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.html

Federal zoning would be really difficult to get done constitutionally, but state level zoning wouldn’t be as hard and would have most of the same benefits, ie. reducing the power the nimbys. However there’s no reason to think that would fix it all, transportation planning, design, and funding is almost entirely a state and federal affair, and the nimbys still torpedo all sorts of things that would be great for the re…

> Federal zoning would be really difficult to get done constitutionally

Would it? I feel like this has Commerce Clause uber alles written all over it.

Re: A proposal to roll back exclusionary zoning would make housing more affordable

#87

Post by dionidium » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:35 PM UTC

joecot wrote: post #65

> On Aug. 13, Carson proposed requiring that cities that receive federal housing grants reduce their use of exclusionary zoning. Question: is there anything stopping these cities from just deciding to decline federal housing grants? The biggest culprit in this issue is Silicon Valley. Do they really need Federal housing grants to make people want to move there? The issue is too much demand already. If Carson forces t…

> The issue is too much demand already.

Only those who already live there think there's too much demand. Everybody else on the planet recognizes that there's not enough supply.

Re: A proposal to roll back exclusionary zoning would make housing more affordable

#88

Post by darksaints » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:37 PM UTC

prolikewh0a wrote: post #82

ginko wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the State governments the problem here though? From what I(not American) can tell the issue seems to be more that local residents have a surprising(to me) amount of political control over zoning on the municipal level. I guess this is all part of the American approach to the distribution of power and there are certainly good sides to this, but it also means that NIMBYs can have so much control by voting for the m…

NIMBY's have practically all of the power with zoning laws in Seattle. They have all of the money as well. We have a crazy amount of SFH right now when we have a housing crisis. It's not like housing would become more affordable anyway, Seattle only builds luxury housing for the rich (and they're having a hard time filling these units!).

> It's not like housing would become more affordable anyway, Seattle only builds luxury housing for the rich (and they're having a hard time filling these units!).

They only build luxury housing because housing supply is restricted and the rich can outbid the poor for that restricted development.

And no, they aren't having a hard time filling units.

Re: A proposal to roll back exclusionary zoning would make housing more affordable

#89

Post by ItsMe000001 » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:41 PM UTC

GreeniFi wrote: post #69

teachrdan wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan is also the unique case of a developed country with declining population. That must contribute to the higher availability of affordable housing, right?

Far from unique. Look at Europe.

The aging population is countered by powerful forces:

- movement into few urban mega-centers (you can't even say "into cities" because there are plenty of cities with little or even negativ population gain)

- immigration (e.g. see https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-immigration/immig...) -- and they mostly want into the already crowded areas, of course

- aging population needs different homes than young families

Re: A proposal to roll back exclusionary zoning would make housing more affordable

#90

Post by mixmastamyk » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:42 PM UTC

pcwalton wrote: post #84

prolikewh0a wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won't happen. The Nimbys have all of the money and can influence the votes in extraordinary ways. Look at Seattle, they won't budge and we have an enormous amount of single family housing. Our mayor is also nearly entirely useless as well, and seemingly only cares about sports teams. The amount of propaganda that would be pushed out to crush any changes to zoning would be on historic levels.

AB 2923, which overrides local zoning in order to allow BART to develop on its parking lots, recently passed both houses in California, despite NIMBY objections. And the Housing Accountability Act, which NIMBYs loathe, has long been law (and was even strengthened relatively recently). Renters are a growing political force.

> Renters are a growing political force.

Renters (often under rent control) are NIMBYs as well, don't understand or are convinced that supply and demand don't apply to housing.