Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#81

Post by skookumchuck » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:42 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #74

skookumchuck wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the meritocratic myth I've been around to see people over decades, and how their decisions affect their lives. Meritocracy is not a myth. Where people wind up is very much a consequence of their choices. This isn't the Soviet Union where one is assigned a career, a job and an apartment. I've seen immigrants arrive here with nothing and become millionaires. That's why everyone wants to come to America. The opportuni…

> Where people wind up is very much a consequence of their choices. True. But we also have lots of studies showing that the best of the lowest socioeconomic class almost never do better than the laziest of the uppermost socioeconomic class.

So why do penniless immigrants keep coming here? Do they know something poor people in America don't, or are they simply misinformed?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#82

Post by marnett » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:44 AM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #48

whb07 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care or need to love you. But I do love my family and myself. So if I need to put on a smile and provide a service or good to you for money to help the people I love I will do it. That's the point of capitalism and free markets. "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their…

Karl Marx: As soon as land becomes private property, the landlord demands a share of almost all the produce which the labourer can either raise, or collect from it. His rent makes the first deduction from the produce of the labour which is employed upon land. ... The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorizes, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while…

genius.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#83

Post by TangoTrotFox » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:45 AM UTC

beamatronic wrote: post #55

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The illegals are all picking strawberries for below minimum wage so we don't have the bear the true costs of our food. Remove them and there would be serious repercussions for those at the lower strata of society.

Has anyone ever calculated the maximum possible wage for a job? Take strawberry picking for an example. If run by a non-profit, what is the highest possible wage? Would be interesting to see this relative to the actual wage.

The entire farming industry is distorted. It's much more subsidized and controlled than most industries. For instance we literally pay some farmers not to grow food. And at times when harvests are high the government will prevent farmers from marketing some portion of their harvest which, in extreme cases, can mean that food simply ends up getting destroyed. It's all about extreme manipulation of supply to try to control prices.

I'm not really supporting or opposing the system, which is a topic for another place, but just mentioning that farming is not like people think it is. So trying to determine what 'market wages' would be like is not really possible when much of the entire industry is operated outside the bounds of the market.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#84

Post by blub » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:46 AM UTC

icu wrote: post #78

greeneggs wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not seem obvious to me. For example, imagine if you overnight doubled the US population. Would wages go down? Well, overnight you would also double the economy and double demand for just about every kind of work, from hairdressers to security guards. What's the overall effect? (And you are talking about just 3.5%, not 100%.) Here's one classic study on the effect: David Card, "The Impact of the Mariel Boatl…

We can actually hold for immigration to some degree. For example, while not exactly doubling, the entry of women into the workforce after WWII had a similar effect of massively increasing the the supply of labour. You would think that two income earners in a household would increase the economy enough that wages would need to rise due to a subsequent shortage of labor... but it did not. Wages, in real terms, have lar…

And most of it is greedy corporations and lack of worker protections. There's always enough money to increase CEO salaries.

I can concede that unskilled immigration is putting downward pressure on the salaries of low/no skill workers, but the US social inequality is the elephant in the room.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#85

Post by brickcitymang » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:48 AM UTC

apatters wrote: post #68

brickcitymang wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I don't deny this nature in myself

It seems like you're lamenting what is basically an immutable biological trait without proposing any solutions. I don't think this adds much to the discussion.

apatters, a discussion on the internet doesn't need solutions. If we loved everyone like we love ourselves, we would not let people go hungry, or suffer. I believe few people have achieved this level of transcendence, and it starts with knowing yourself. If somehow I could write a comment over the internet that can make you do some self-reflection I would. But I don't know what that comment is.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#86

Post by burfog » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:51 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #74

skookumchuck wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the meritocratic myth I've been around to see people over decades, and how their decisions affect their lives. Meritocracy is not a myth. Where people wind up is very much a consequence of their choices. This isn't the Soviet Union where one is assigned a career, a job and an apartment. I've seen immigrants arrive here with nothing and become millionaires. That's why everyone wants to come to America. The opportuni…

> Where people wind up is very much a consequence of their choices. True. But we also have lots of studies showing that the best of the lowest socioeconomic class almost never do better than the laziest of the uppermost socioeconomic class.

We have social mobility, not a social lottery. Moving all the way from the bottom to the top might take a couple generations, which will obviously involve needing to win at a fierce competition.

That looks an awful lot like a meritocracy.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#87

Post by 3x » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:55 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #35

greeneggs wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not seem obvious to me. For example, imagine if you overnight doubled the US population. Would wages go down? Well, overnight you would also double the economy and double demand for just about every kind of work, from hairdressers to security guards. What's the overall effect? (And you are talking about just 3.5%, not 100%.) Here's one classic study on the effect: David Card, "The Impact of the Mariel Boatl…

The effect of a doubling of the population depends entirely on who the new people were. Are they native speaking engineers, doctors and pop stars? Or illiterate and sickly old people? One thing is for sure, housing prices would skyrocket!

> One thing is for sure, housing prices would skyrocket!

Sure, in the hypothetical of instantaneously doubling the population without any time for the market to adjust for increased demand. But if the population doubles over the course of 30 years? That's only about 11 million people a year, the market would expect and adjust to the influx of people easily. Governments would also ideally be devising initiatives and changing policy to promote affordable housing. The high cost of housing in the US is its own issue anyway.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#88

Post by JumpCrisscross » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:56 AM UTC

whatever1 wrote: post #49

acchow wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook is banned behind the Great Firewall. Regardless, what does this have to do with the discussion?

The People do not have stake at company A. Company A does not share the true values of the People. Company A is now banned. Repeat until all companies comply.

This argument makes no sense. Huawei is banned in America.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#89

Post by CobrastanJorji » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:56 AM UTC

some_account wrote: post #66

tosser00001 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting the immigration cannot even be mentioned without getting down voted. It seems obvious to me that fewer low skill workers would result in higher wages for those who could most benefit from it.

I'm Sweden we are labeled as racists if we talk about it, so downvoting seems minor :)

Didn't y'all just give the political party with neo-Nazi roots 63 seats in the Riksdag a few days ago? The labeling might be because at least some of the people talking a lot about immigrants are racists.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#90

Post by xivzgrev » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:57 AM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #79

I broke out of poverty. Why can't they do it too? It was a simple thing for me, a combination of studying hard, focusing on my future and the death of my father. You see, my parents were both fishermen. It's a grueling, painful job that can destroy your body as you age leaving you with back problems and forcing you to retire early. It also paid poorly and had a lot of risks. Which unfortunately for us, resulted in th…

I'm sorry to hear about your parents. However I don't know what your point is. On one hand you say your hard work and focus on future got you out of poverty. Then you say your parents are an example of where hard work and grit are NOT all you need.

Honestly it sounds like you were born with a certain amount of intelligence, got some money to go to college, and you made the most of it. But where would you be if you had neither, I wonder?