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Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

nytimes.com

41–50 of 632 posts

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#41
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting the immigration cannot even be mentioned without getting down voted. It seems obvious to me that fewer low skill workers would result in higher wages for those who could most benefit from it.

Please don't complain about being downvoted. This isn't slashdot.

The suppression of dialogue surrounding immigration far exceeds downvotes in scope and severity.

In fact, the suggestion that tosser00001's main point had anything to do with silly internet points is a minimization/redirection tactic that is itself a more important instance of the very thing being complained about.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#42

Rugged individualism

February 1928 political speech by Herbert Hoover:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=rugged%20indiv...

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rugged_individualism

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/rugged-i...

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Illegal immigrants are 1% of the population in the U.S. It's used as a way to divide people rather than an actual serious issue.

Pew Reasearch puts the number at 3.5%, which I think is quite high enough to impact growth. But downward wage pressure at the lowest sectors comes from both legal and illegal immigration. It would be interesting to see what at short term lowering of immigration would have on wage growth.

Aren't a lot of these immigrants doing highly skilled and highly paid labor? They don't depress wage growth for low paying jobs. And they actually increase demand for their products.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#44

Poverty in America is a result of American capitalism, at a very high level. At a very very high level, it is caused by human greed, and a lack of love for our neighbors. We can talk about wages and employment rates, and race all day long, but those are just details. It's human greed in the end, and our inability to love others like we love ourselves.

There was no poverty before America?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#45
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is successful now entirely as a result of their conversion to capitalism. This is an extremely well known fact about China. China tried communism, it went absolutely terribly. They changed to capitalism, and things got good. I can't imagine an example that more perfectly agrees with my point.

How is Facebook doing in capitalist China?

Facebook is banned behind the Great Firewall.

Regardless, what does this have to do with the discussion?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#46
>American productivity has increased by 77 percent, while hourly pay has grown by only 12 percent

Yes but where has this happened. I suspect it's happened through automation. Meaning that the productivity gains might not be per employee and might not easily translate into the pockets of workers.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#47
post #40

Wage growth would help, but for some reason, these articles never even mention immigration. The scale of immigration both legal and illegal I believe has the greatest impact on the lowest sectors of society. The lack of discussion on the impact so many potential new workers is having on wage growth leads one to think they believe labor cost is the one thing immune to the law of supply and demand.

You're ignoring the demand side. Immigrants also increase demand. For everything.

Do they? By how much? Immigrants have usually low wages. Anyways, in Western Europe, the increased demand (which is probably smaller than in the US), those things are easily canceled by the added costs to public healthcare + social benefits.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#48
post #3

Poverty in America is a result of American capitalism, at a very high level. At a very very high level, it is caused by human greed, and a lack of love for our neighbors. We can talk about wages and employment rates, and race all day long, but those are just details. It's human greed in the end, and our inability to love others like we love ourselves.

I don't care or need to love you. But I do love my family and myself. So if I need to put on a smile and provide a service or good to you for money to help the people I love I will do it. That's the point of capitalism and free markets. "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their…

Karl Marx:

As soon as land becomes private property, the landlord demands a share of almost all the produce which the labourer can either raise, or collect from it. His rent makes the first deduction from the produce of the labour which is employed upon land.

...

The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorizes, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen. We have no acts of parliament against combining to lower the price of work; but many against combining to raise it. In all such disputes the masters can hold out much longer.

...

Masters are always and everywhere in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate. To violate this combination is everywhere a most unpopular action, and a sort of reproach to a master among his neighbours and equals. We seldom, indeed, hear of this combination, because it is the usual, and one may say, the natural state of things, which nobody ever hears of. Masters, too, sometimes enter into particular combinations to sink the wages of labour even below this rate.

...

A man must always live by his work, and his wages must at least be sufficient to maintain him. They must even upon most occasions be somewhat more; otherwise it would be impossible for him to bring up a family, and the race of such workmen could not last beyond the first generation.

...

No society can surely be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable. It is but equity, besides, that they who feed, clothe, and lodge the whole body of the people, should have such a share of the produce of their own labour as to be themselves tolerably well fed, clothed, and lodged.

...

Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power.

...

POLITICAL œconomy, considered as a branch of the science of aThe first object of political economy is to provide subsistence for the people statesman or legislator, proposes two distinct objects: first, to provide a plentiful revenue or subsistence for the people, or more properly to enable them to provide such a revenue or subsistence for themselves; and secondly, to supply the state or commonwealth with a revenue sufficient for the public services. It proposes to enrich both the people and the sovereign.

Oh, silly me, that's Adam Smith. So hard to tell them apart.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_I/...

http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/smith-an-inquiry-into-the-...

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#49
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Facebook doing in capitalist China?

Facebook is banned behind the Great Firewall. Regardless, what does this have to do with the discussion?

The People do not have stake at company A. Company A does not share the true values of the People. Company A is now banned. Repeat until all companies comply.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#50
post #9

The woman in this story is handcuffed by her decision to have 3 kids. Show me the 20 year old dropout. Explain why he/she can't devote themselves to self improvement.

are we talking about a middle class 20 year old dropout, or the three kids the woman in this story is raising?

not that it should matter, though if you want to help more people, help women with kids. people's lives are complicated in so many ways. it doesn't help to blame the victims (though i prefer to see the folks living tough lives -- especially when that involves also caring for others!! -- as fucking badasses).

(a) let women own their own bodies and lives, and stop blaming them for how fucked up our culture and laws are when it comes to sex and pregnancy

(b) value kids and mothers. stop underfunding childcare, education, and overprotecting domestic abusers and the patriarchy.

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