How America lost its love for the stick shift • Hacker News Board

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#381

Post by bluedino » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:16 AM UTC

rrdharan wrote: post #320

dkr88 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I test drove a 2008 WRX a while ago and the clutch was pretty heavy, IIRC. I remember thinking to myself "this would be a major pain in traffic".

I tried to learn to drive stick on a Subaru WRX, I believe it was a 2002 or 2003 model year. It did not go well. Almost ended a friendship and I had leg cramps for days. Fortunately I managed to get the hang of it later on a more forgiving Mazda Protege.

If you think any modern hydraulic clutch is hard to push you should try an old z-bar clutch from the 70’s or early 80’s

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#382

Post by dionidium » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:18 AM UTC

setr wrote: post #149

dionidium wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Easy to say from the position of thinking you can't lose your license or have the financial means to deal with such a loss. There's a villainous cycle at work here. Car supremacy produces cities in which you need a car, so that attempts to push back on car supremacy can be credibly opposed on the grounds that they hurt the poor and less advantaged, when of course the very opposite thing is true.

the opposite is true in the long run . In the finalized scenario, where public transport is cheap, functional, useful and maintainable, or modern cities have been totally rewritten to support pedestrian first, it makes more sense than cars. But between removing cars today, and the day public transport actually reaches such a state, is long and far, and you fuck the car-less over for the entire duration. You can't sud…

I would argue for all those other things simultaneously. We’ve dug a hole so deep it’s going to take some work to get out of it. And most people alive today grew up in this hole, so they’re like a fish who asks, “what is water?”

They only know the hole. The hole seems like a natural, immutable feature of the world.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try. Inaction is a form of action, so it's not good enough to oppose a net good on the grounds that the transition will be painful.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#383

Post by X-Istence » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:18 AM UTC

chillwaves wrote: post #210

kenhwang wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can still skip from 2-6 on a freeway onramp or 6-4 for passing faster than 8/10 speeds can go 2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10. There's no point revving out all my gears in real world driving, I just want to reach the speed limit as fast as possible then go into overdrive. DCTs are very fast at switching into what they think is your next gear. They're quite slow at switching if you want to switch more gears.

2-6? That never happens. You'd probably blow your engine before you did it. Not many people hitting 50 mph in 2nd gear.

My Subaru WRX would beg to differ... 60 Mph in second gear, then shift to 6th to do highway traffic, just fine.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#384

Post by jrs235 » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:18 AM UTC

int_handler wrote: post #313

t0mbstone wrote: post #163

Speaking as someone who has owned a number of sports cars with manual transmissions, I can tell you why I finally made the switch to automatic: Adaptive cruise control in stop and go traffic. I used to have to deal with a six-speed manual transmission in stop and go traffic for an hour every day, and it was pure torture. I mean, sure, it was fun for a weekend drive in the mountains, but it sucked the rest of the time…

Driving a manual car isn't about efficiency. It is about driver engagement. Yes, you can row your own gears with paddle shifters, but no automatic will ever give you the same kind of engagement or connectedness with the car as a manual with three pedals will. But yes, if there is a smoking gun for the death of the manual in America, it would be our crumbling, congested roads and absurdly long daily commutes.

> driver engagement

The same reason I love(d) driving motorcycle. It's a full body engagement. Both hands, both feet, and super alertness and focus on everything around you.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#385

Post by Johnny555 » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:18 AM UTC

FPGAhacker wrote: post #374

Johnny555 wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you understand persistent stop and go traffic -- shifting between neutral and first gets awfully tiring after 45+ minutes when you have to do it every day. Putting the car in neutral doesn't really solve that problem. Adaptive cruise control with stop-and-go support is not really the same as cruise-control in free flowing traffic. I rarely use cruise-control in normal traffic, but the stop-and-go cruise…

I would love adaptive cruise control for Seattle area traffic. What kind of car do you have?

I had a Mazda, but gave it up a few months ago when I moved to the Seattle area... Now I commute by bike (which has manual shifting, but no cruise control :-)) Though my Eastside commute is nothing at all like my old Bay Area commute, not nearly as much traffic.

Here are some other car models with full range adaptive cruise control:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_cruise_control_syst...

And here's what looks like a more complete list of 2018 models supporting it:

https://www.cars.com/articles/which-cars-have-self-driving-f...

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#386

Post by sakopov » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:19 AM UTC

I recently made the mistake of buying a CVT WRX because of traffic and yada yada. Very fun car but the CVT just kills it. I wind up driving the thing with paddle shifters most of the time. And I've almost convinced myself to trade it up for a manual STI in near future. This whole experience makes me sad sometimes because I know that most fun cars these days only come with paddle shifters these days. This is such a joy kill.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#387

Post by inferiorhuman » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:19 AM UTC

IshKebab wrote: post #78

Someone1234 wrote: post #48

There's little argument for manual transmission anymore except in larger vehicles. There used to be an efficiency gap, in that a good manual driver was more efficient than an automatic. But two things have happened since then, we have computer controlled transmissions and CVTs. Manual drivers were more efficient because they learned when the vehicle would need to shift, and shifted preemptively. A computer controlled…

Are manuals not cheaper to manufacture and repair? Definitely in the UK since 90% of cars are still manual.

A lot depends on the transmission. In BMW land you can take apart the automatics and often get parts for them. The manuals rated higher for higher power (e.g. the Getrag 420G) you may be able to take it apart (even then you'll want specialized jigs), and you may be able to put it back together (with a monstrous press), but you still won't be able to find new parts for it.

Meanwhile you can take the automatics apart in your garage with few-to-no specialized tools.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#388

Post by jimmaswell » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:23 AM UTC

headcanon wrote: post #53

My father bought me my first car, under the conditions that it had to be a stick, since he wanted me to learn in general, and since you have to pay attention more to the road, your likelihood of getting into an accident decreases significantly. Now I drive a manual Golf GTI and I'm firmly of the "cold dead hands" camp with having it. I always wonder why other people don't like driving, and then I drive their cars. Ha…

That doesn't make any sense to me. Adding a stick shift means you have to pay more attention to shifting and less attention to the road.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#389

Post by sevensor » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:25 AM UTC

InitialLastName wrote: post #124

mulmen wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think fun has to equal unsafe. Manuals provide an opportunity to have fun doing things like matching downshifts and thinking about what you are doing. Both can be done within the confines of safe, legal operation.

I think GP's point is that people who have fun driving drive more frequently, which is inherently unsafe.

Indeed. As a cyclist, I'm absolutely safer when there is less traffic. Less traffic means motorists have fewer other moving objects to distract them from not killing me.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#390

Post by dgzl » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 1:25 AM UTC

I've been driving stick shift since I first learned to drive (10 years), and I absolutely love it. Yes, driving in traffic can be painful, but the overall benefits outweigh this problem.

I try to describe the situation like this: imagine you have two axis of control with an automatic, the accelerator and the brake. You can use these two independently of each other, and your car's actions will respond to them.

Now with a standard transmission, you're adding a clutch, adding a third dimension, which can also be used independently of the two. The ability and actions your car can take essentially take on a new dimension.

In the case of an automatic, this third dimension is executed by the system, releasing the user from control. However as great autopilot is yet a reality, the world presents more driving obstacles than what a standard automatic vehicle can perfectly account for. Thus giving a "not perfect but good enough" result.

CVTs work too I guess, but I'm also trying to have fun here.

In my personal experience, driving stick makes me more engaged with driving, and therefore more concentrated on driving, while automatics make me feel like everything is easy and I can pay less attention.

I think self/assisted driving would be the key feature to get me off the stick.