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How America lost its love for the stick shift

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Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#211

Post by tspike »

taeric wrote: post #189
nostrademons wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engine braking is a pretty gradual deceleration - if the car behind you doesn't notice that you're slowing down in the ~30 seconds it takes to close a safe distance with a car that's gradually slowing down, you got bigger problems. For that matter, automatics do it too. Take your foot off the gas in an automatic and wind/rolling resistance will eventually slow you down too. I find that the fuel economy savings from e…

Most people I know that refer to engine braking have always meant something faster than an automatic would do. Unless you are talking about letting of the gas and downshifting in an automatic. Is it guaranteed to get you in a wreck? Not at all. But, I would be surprised if people weren't more keyed to the "red light" in front of them than you are letting on.

More blame should be assigned for being dangerous to the person who only glances up from his phone when he sees red lights than to the engine braker.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#212

Post by tedunangst »

0x00000000 wrote: post #208
t0mbstone wrote: post #163

Speaking as someone who has owned a number of sports cars with manual transmissions, I can tell you why I finally made the switch to automatic: Adaptive cruise control in stop and go traffic. I used to have to deal with a six-speed manual transmission in stop and go traffic for an hour every day, and it was pure torture. I mean, sure, it was fun for a weekend drive in the mountains, but it sucked the rest of the time…

To each their own, but stop and go traffic does not exist in the absence of stoplights if you leave adequate space in front of you. If you tailgate, ride your brakes, or have to stop completely you are contributing to traffic jams behind you. I drive a 6 speed in one of the worst traffic areas in the US every day.

How much space do I need to leave if the car in front of me is stopped?

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#213

Post by rootusrootus »

ken wrote: post #27

Despite the title, it never explores why this phenomenon is specific to America, except to note that "the 5-speed manual is [still] the most popular transmission in the world".

Well, once we went past the point where most cars had an automatic, we quickly got to the point where basically nobody knows how to drive a manual. So it feeds on itself. Guy that I work with just traded out his Mazda 3 for a new one, got an automatic this time because his girlfriend can't drive a stick. Wouldn't learn. So... that's how you get nearly 100% adoption.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#214

Post by telchar »

crunchlibrarian wrote: post #101
Someone1234 wrote: post #48

There's little argument for manual transmission anymore except in larger vehicles. There used to be an efficiency gap, in that a good manual driver was more efficient than an automatic. But two things have happened since then, we have computer controlled transmissions and CVTs. Manual drivers were more efficient because they learned when the vehicle would need to shift, and shifted preemptively. A computer controlled…

I've tried lots of autos and CVTs and still haven't found one that isn't terribly confused about what gearing I want. The worst is when you floor it and it thinks for two seconds before actually downshifting, it can be outright dangerous. And if you're in a powerful car an unexpected upshift that shifts the weight around in bizarre ways, cuts power, and kicks the traction control into overdrive while cornering is a p…

I've been very happy with the Audi DSG. Absolutely no complaints. Though when I need to pass on a narrow road sometimes I use the paddle to downshift before I hit the gas just to save the car from the split second it takes to realize I'm serious about accelerating (when not in sport mode). But that's not a big difference in actual acceleration time.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#215

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

Zanni wrote: post #179
joeblau wrote: post #59

My brother has an R8, Viper, and Vantage (All Manual) and I would rather drive a Tesla over all 3 of them. Manual is fun and you get the feeling of control and I love driving them, but in reality, there is a reason they are on their way out. The main problem is that the replacement, automatic, make driving feel worse. The computers that manage automatic transmissions are so bad that they make automatics feel terrible…

Definitely this. I used to think I preferred manuals for the sense of control. When I got a Tesla, I realized what I was really looking for was responsiveness. I also have an Audi TTS which is automatic but has a "manual" mode. Apparently it can shift faster than a human being, which makes it much quicker to leave it on auto if you're going for a fast 0-60 time. Just stomp on the gas and it'll shift at the optimum mo…

> When I got a Tesla, I realized what I was really looking for was responsiveness.

Yup.

The responsiveness of an EV makes even a Nissan Leaf feel surprisingly zippy.

When I drive my wife's CRV (which has a CVT), it feels bad when I floor it to pass someone and I have to wait for the RPMs to increase before it actually really begins to move. Even in my manual BRZ, it takes me a second to clutch in, give it gas to rev match while moving the shifter, and release the clutch. And I've had times dropping to second where I rev-matched poorly while releasing the clutch too fast, causing a bit of wheel spin, which made the traction control hit the brakes a bit.

Feels bad, man.

Looking forward to getting an EV in about 5 years. Planning on getting a Tesla Roadster if I can afford it. The wife would rather see me settle for a Model S P100D though.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#216

Post by tspike »

singingboyo wrote: post #154
mjklin wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve brought up a good reason why Americans should learn manual: in case they rent cars in other countries. I rented a car in Costa Rica whose clutch had been destroyed by the previous renter, which fact did not make itself plain until we were on a mountain road. Wish he had learned stick!

But... how? When no one owns a manual, you can't learn to drive stick. My dad had a manual car that he'd kept for 20 years, and I haven't seen one since that went, about 10 years ago. (I could've learned on that had I gotten things together, but didn't. Given its condition near the end, that's probably a good thing.) There's nothing around to learn on. It's a vicious circle sort of problem at this point. Less manual…

Even the people who insist on manual reinforce this cycle because the only cars that have one are older, so they buy used and then the few manufacturers who offer manuals in new vehicles look at the numbers and say, "hmm, nobody seems to want a manual."

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#217

Post by taeric »

tspike wrote: post #211
taeric wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people I know that refer to engine braking have always meant something faster than an automatic would do. Unless you are talking about letting of the gas and downshifting in an automatic. Is it guaranteed to get you in a wreck? Not at all. But, I would be surprised if people weren't more keyed to the "red light" in front of them than you are letting on.

More blame should be assigned for being dangerous to the person who only glances up from his phone when he sees red lights than to the engine braker.

This implies I was giving less blame to those folks. I'm not taking away any responsibility from anyone for dangerous behavior. However, especially with how highly visible lights are on modern vehicles, it is silly to not realize any situation that at all inhibits visibility will benefit from extra signaling.

As I said down thread, I think I can logically and in full conscious support both of those statements. :)

So, yes, folks that are being negligent deserve the blame in wrecks they cause. However, signaling benefits everyone. Including folks driving in fog/rain/night/whatever.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#218

Post by taeric »

kenhwang wrote: post #197
gnicholas wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've wondered how this is issue is addressed in EVs that offer one-pedal driving. Do they show the brake lights when deceleration exceeds a certain rate? Similarly, when I'm braking very lightly in my plugin-in hybrid in order to charge the battery all the way down a long hill, I wish there were a way to not have the brake lights activated the whole time. It's only barely slowing me down, and I've driven other cars t…

Federal regulation requires brake lights to be on if deceleration from regenerative braking to be over specified thresholds. edit: apparently, it's UN regulation, not federal.

Cool to know. Do you have up to date links to that regulation?

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#219

Post by greglindahl »

joeblau wrote: post #59

My brother has an R8, Viper, and Vantage (All Manual) and I would rather drive a Tesla over all 3 of them. Manual is fun and you get the feeling of control and I love driving them, but in reality, there is a reason they are on their way out. The main problem is that the replacement, automatic, make driving feel worse. The computers that manage automatic transmissions are so bad that they make automatics feel terrible…

Looking at the replies to your comment, it appears that few repliers realize that Tesla S/X/3 all have just one gear.

Ditto for the Bolt and Leaf. This is the future of cars.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#220

Post by bigger_cheese »

taeric wrote: post #160
commandlinefan wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned to drive in a manual. Now that my son is getting close to driving age, I wanted to teach him in a manual first, like I learned - and then I found out it's damned near impossible to _find_ one any more.

I confess I gained a ton of respect for Klik & Klack was when they gave the advice to not teach kids on a stick shift. This is akin to teaching a kid to ride a 21 speed bike. They can probably get up to that rather quickly, all told, but just learning the basics of balance and pedaling will already be difficult enough. Similarly, just learning the basics of the car will already be tough. Why add to it? Why not take a…

When I was learning to drive my parents taught me in an old early 80's beat up station wagon. It was manual and had no power steering and the worst clutch I've ever used to this day. It took me a long time to learn to drive.

A few years later they sold the car and both my sisters learnt to drive in more modern automatics.

My learning experience was miserable but after learning in that old crappy wagon I can drive just about anything now. Once you have parked a car without power steering any other parking you have to do in a modern car feels like a complete non issue.

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