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What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

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Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#221

Post by basseq »

rmason wrote: post #90

My experience about 'culture fit' was that it was a code word for ageism. Sometimes they'd be even more direct if I pushed back. This wasn't at the end of a 45 minute interview, it was in the first five minutes after I'd already passed the technical review. Might not be true in every instance, but I absolutely cringe when I hear that phrase.

"Culture fit" is a double-edged sword, and implies you have a strong handle on what your culture is in the first place: both the good and the bad.

A candidate who is conflict-adverse, for instance, would not be a "culture fit" in an organization where decisions are made in screaming matches.

The problems come when your culture is toxic, particularly for certain types of people. If older candidates wouldn't be successful or happy in your work-20-hours-a-day-know-it-all culture, that's a culture problem, not a dog-whistle for ageism.

Some interviewers use "culture fit" to explain a not-like-me discrimination against people with a different gender, background, age, race, etc. Those people are generally toxic—but also indicative of an organizational culture that tolerates those biases by employees who are external-facing representatives of that company.

As a candidate, if you're ever rejected as a "bad culture fit", you probably dodged a bullet. That's a negative reflection on the company, not on you.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#222

Post by astura »

jayalpha wrote: post #160
ionforce wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you maintain that stance if that sentiment is rooted in gender or race or sexuality (etc etc)?

My mind is still puzzled by this discussion and I will think deeply about it. But regarding your question: Yes, why not? I learned it the hard way that sometimes some kind of sentiment is good. :-)

>why not?

Because it's illegal?

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#223

Post by wrs »

curun1r wrote: post #176
wrs wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I’m an “older coder”, though my knees are doing OK, but never in my life would I have wanted to work at a place where there’s mandatory attendance at ski trips and zip-lining. That sounds utterly awful. Maybe you’re attributing something to age that is just a matter of taste? And maybe that’s not a good way to limit your hiring?

Nothing was mandatory and, in fact, the team leads purposefully organized events to be inclusive to everyone on the team. That was the whole point...by including an older, less-physically-capable team member, it was no longer an option to do fun, youth-oriented team events. And that person was excluded from work-related conversations that happened at after-work bar trips, which caused some awkwardness when the rest o…

You’re repeatedly describing a workplace where people who don’t fit into a narrow set of non-work-related criteria are excluded from significant work decisions, then somehow not realizing that’s the textbook definition of a discriminatory work environment. It’s no different from making important work decisions in the men’s bathroom and saying you won’t hire women because they would feel “alienated”.

Feel free to hang out with your friends at bars, but don’t make them mandatory for work. This principle is not complicated.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#224

Post by Skrillex »

kanelbullar wrote: post #212
aeternus wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, that instinct to Google for the answer is actually one of the 'culture fits' that we look for. There are a surprising number of candidates & engineers that simply give up when they encounter a hard problem.

Interesting, that instinct to Google for the answer is actually one of the 'culture fits' that we look for. Interesting, because many candidates would (rightly and safely) assume that you're asking if they already know the answer - not if (duh) they could just google it. And accordingly, to respond with "just google it" would mark them as a plodding, uninspired programmer - and definitely cost them points (or even ou…

>to respond with "just google it" would mark them as a plodding, uninspired programmer

I do not believe that this logic works in all/most/many scenarios. I would not be asking a question in an interview that could "just" be googled. That generally would suggest that I am asking for trivia as opposed to asking for understanding.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#225

Post by dba7dba »

aeternus wrote: post #145
stcredzero wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience about 'culture fit' was that it was a code word for ageism. I've experienced people figuring out my age when looking at my resume, then weirdly warping the questions while accusing me of Googling the answers in response. (Based only on hearing me type. I was scripting a Python script to give the answer.)

Interesting, that instinct to Google for the answer is actually one of the 'culture fits' that we look for. There are a surprising number of candidates & engineers that simply give up when they encounter a hard problem.

I know a guy who was an engineer at a very well known US based engineering startup that made real physical products. Lots of top engineering grads from top schools apply there. His observation of young interns from top schools was that when the fresh engineering grads (or soon to be grads) ran into a problem that they couldn't solve, many didn't know how to react or didn't take it well.

They all had been able to get that far in their academic career because they had been able to solve problems, and solve them well and quickly.

When they ran into hard problems in the real world that they couldn't solve, some couldn't handle it well.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#226

Post by Skrillex »

P_I_Staker wrote: post #140
bjornlouser wrote: post #56

Good culture fit is when we ask an employee to do something and they do it. A bad fit is someone who occasionally says no. A toxic employee occasionally says no and explains why they won't.

No. Sometimes you must say no. No is important. Explaining why no is the answer isn't toxic, it's usually necessary, because otherwise you're saying: No, because I said so, which is toxic.

To me, the parent's statement is ironic. I could be wrong though.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#227

Post by richpimp »

curun1r wrote: post #162
SonnyWortzik wrote: post #119

We joke a lot about that after I was hired as a middle aged coder... during interview Boss: "so do you think you can fit in this culture?" Me: "You mean, do I wear skinny jeans and drink kale smoothies? Probably not, but if you want your work done, does culture fit matter when you have a mile long back log?" Boss: "good point, so... How does your schedule look for next week?" it was all history from there.

Over time, I've realize that this view of work/team dynamics is overly unsophisticated. People are all really unique and viewing them as simply work-accomplishing units misses a ton of the nuance in creating a successful team. On one team I worked in, we hired an older coder with bad knees and a couple of kids at home. Everyone in the team got along with him and generally liked him and he got his work done without to…

Perspectives change as we age, particularly if you decide to start a family. It's easy and fun to socialize with your coworkers when you're young and unburdened. After all, once you're out of school, where are your friends most likely to come from? Work, of course. I met my wife and some of my best friends at various jobs. When you're married with kids, you tend to want to spend as much time with them as you can. Spending all my time with work friends outside of work hours takes away from that family time. It's less about "I hate being here and only want to put in my 9 - 5" and more about engaging with my family and in activities that I'm more apt to like as each decade passes.

The thing to be mindful of, especially when you're in your twenties, is those things you love about your work environment today, you may not like when you're in your thirties, forties, etc. I remember vividly and fondly of partying with work friends until the bars closed every weekend (and weekdays, too), going zip-lining, playing games together, and so on. I wouldn't trade those memories for anything, but I also would never want to relive that again.

My point is, have fun, enjoy your youth, and make some good memories. But don't discriminate against others who just want to be professionals and do their job. One day it's very likely you will feel the same as they do...

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#228

Post by baobabKoodaa »

astura wrote: post #218
curun1r wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing was mandatory and, in fact, the team leads purposefully organized events to be inclusive to everyone on the team. That was the whole point...by including an older, less-physically-capable team member, it was no longer an option to do fun, youth-oriented team events. And that person was excluded from work-related conversations that happened at after-work bar trips, which caused some awkwardness when the rest o…

>Nothing was mandatory Sounds like it was mandatory. >And that person was excluded from work-related conversations that happened at after-work bar trips, which caused some awkwardness when the rest of the team aligned behind a significant decision and the excluded team member felt like he wasn't consulted. If not going creates a problem, it's mandatory, period. Additionally, arranging your work discussions and decisi…

> Additionally, arranging your work discussions and decisions around alcohol consumption can absolutely be considered religions discrimination as many people don't consume alcohol for religious reasons and you certainly don't have any business justification for it. Also discrimination on pregnancy status.

What a bizarre claim. Your parent poster explicitly said they tried to organize group activities where everyone - including the old man with bad knees - could participate. Knowing this, it's safe to assume they didn't have pregnant employees (if they chose alcohol related activities while striving to include everyone).

> If not going creates a problem, it's mandatory, period.

Again, such a weird position to take. So, in your opinion, no after work events should ever take place unless every single employee is present at all times and during all discussions? After all, that's what you were referring to with that "problem": a worker who is not present at an after-work discussion, leading to a slightly awkward situation the next monday.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#229

Post by kayoone »

curun1r wrote: post #162
SonnyWortzik wrote: post #119

We joke a lot about that after I was hired as a middle aged coder... during interview Boss: "so do you think you can fit in this culture?" Me: "You mean, do I wear skinny jeans and drink kale smoothies? Probably not, but if you want your work done, does culture fit matter when you have a mile long back log?" Boss: "good point, so... How does your schedule look for next week?" it was all history from there.

Over time, I've realize that this view of work/team dynamics is overly unsophisticated. People are all really unique and viewing them as simply work-accomplishing units misses a ton of the nuance in creating a successful team. On one team I worked in, we hired an older coder with bad knees and a couple of kids at home. Everyone in the team got along with him and generally liked him and he got his work done without to…

I think it's quite wrong that this guy got basically penalized for just doing what he's paid for and getting along well with people. It's fine when teams get along so well that some people even spend their time with colleagues on the evenings and weekends, I do that too but please don't low-level force me to do it by applying social pressure.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#230

Post by kayoone »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #228
astura wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nothing was mandatory Sounds like it was mandatory. >And that person was excluded from work-related conversations that happened at after-work bar trips, which caused some awkwardness when the rest of the team aligned behind a significant decision and the excluded team member felt like he wasn't consulted. If not going creates a problem, it's mandatory, period. Additionally, arranging your work discussions and decisi…

> Additionally, arranging your work discussions and decisions around alcohol consumption can absolutely be considered religions discrimination as many people don't consume alcohol for religious reasons and you certainly don't have any business justification for it. Also discrimination on pregnancy status. What a bizarre claim. Your parent poster explicitly said they tried to organize group activities where everyone -…

No decisions on work-specific matters should be taken on non-mandatory social events were some team members can't/don't want to attend. If you do it, fill the missing people in the next day, the same way someone was missing from an important meeting for whatever work-related reason.
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