What Companies Mean by Culture Fit • Hacker News Board

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#211

Post by cuddlecake » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 10:41 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #97

hueving wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>algorithmic complexity of a shuffling algorithm is going to be a challenge, why even have a degree!? Because complexity analysis is a tiny part of a CS degree. A huge wing of our CS grad department focused on type theory and PL in general and could easily screw up a complexity analysis quiz like that because it's irrelevant to their day-to-day research/work.

Because complexity analysis is a tiny part of a CS degree Yes, but it's a slow-ball pitch! What's the complexity of filling in an array with its indices? If a CS grad can't solve something just a little more complex than that (for a sloppy/easy version of the question, not the shuffling algorithm expert version) then just what the heck are they learning?

It's obviously constant. Duh!

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#212

Post by kanelbullar » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 10:53 AM UTC

aeternus wrote: post #145

stcredzero wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience about 'culture fit' was that it was a code word for ageism. I've experienced people figuring out my age when looking at my resume, then weirdly warping the questions while accusing me of Googling the answers in response. (Based only on hearing me type. I was scripting a Python script to give the answer.)

Interesting, that instinct to Google for the answer is actually one of the 'culture fits' that we look for. There are a surprising number of candidates & engineers that simply give up when they encounter a hard problem.

Interesting, that instinct to Google for the answer is actually one of the 'culture fits' that we look for.

Interesting, because many candidates would (rightly and safely) assume that you're asking if they already know the answer - not if (duh) they could just google it. And accordingly, to respond with "just google it" would mark them as a plodding, uninspired programmer - and definitely cost them points (or even outright sink the interview).

There are a surprising number of candidates & engineers that simply give up when they encounter a hard problem.

It sure is easy (and gratifying) to feel categorically superior to a significant portion of the people who walked in through that door with the idea of landing a job.

But Occam's Razor suggest that, rather than being a bunch of gutless dolts - they were (perhaps as a result of being bludgeoned by one soul-crushing interview experience too many) simply assuming a more conservative acceptance level to your question than you thought they were.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#213

Post by kanelbullar » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 11:11 AM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #162

SonnyWortzik wrote: post #119

We joke a lot about that after I was hired as a middle aged coder... during interview Boss: "so do you think you can fit in this culture?" Me: "You mean, do I wear skinny jeans and drink kale smoothies? Probably not, but if you want your work done, does culture fit matter when you have a mile long back log?" Boss: "good point, so... How does your schedule look for next week?" it was all history from there.

Over time, I've realize that this view of work/team dynamics is overly unsophisticated. People are all really unique and viewing them as simply work-accomplishing units misses a ton of the nuance in creating a successful team. On one team I worked in, we hired an older coder with bad knees and a couple of kids at home. Everyone in the team got along with him and generally liked him and he got his work done without to…

Over time, almost everyone in the team looked for opportunities to transfer to other teams (and sometimes companies) that looked like they were having more fun.

You know, the actual work you have your people do (along with the monetary compensation, and of course the extent to which they're pleasant to work with, you know, while at work) really (really) ought to be sufficient motivation to show up in the morning and get stuff done, over the longer haul.

By the same token -- if you feel you not only absolutely need extracurricular activities (let lone that your people need to "all hang out with each other socially" at odd hours of the day and night) to hold the team together... but feel the need to point to a deficit in this area as the primary reason why your team does not succeed... then you're definitely missing this bigger picture.

Eventually, the team's output suffered as turnover increased, until eventually, he ended up leaving. The net effect was hugely disruptive to the company.

Indeed. It sounds like you lost a good employee (and many others like him that he could have potentially recruited into your company) for the sake of the (perceived) benefits of maintaining a certain monoculture -- predicated in turn on a certain stereotype of fun and "energetic" younger employees. And how wonderful everything can be when you only hire people who fit that particular mold.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#214

Post by astura » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 11:58 AM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #162

SonnyWortzik wrote: post #119

We joke a lot about that after I was hired as a middle aged coder... during interview Boss: "so do you think you can fit in this culture?" Me: "You mean, do I wear skinny jeans and drink kale smoothies? Probably not, but if you want your work done, does culture fit matter when you have a mile long back log?" Boss: "good point, so... How does your schedule look for next week?" it was all history from there.

Over time, I've realize that this view of work/team dynamics is overly unsophisticated. People are all really unique and viewing them as simply work-accomplishing units misses a ton of the nuance in creating a successful team. On one team I worked in, we hired an older coder with bad knees and a couple of kids at home. Everyone in the team got along with him and generally liked him and he got his work done without to…

Sounds like your problem is not the older gentleman with bad knees, its actually your company is more interested in skiing, zip lining, and drinking than it is in getting work done.

Work is for work, right?

If you create a "work culture" that defacto excludes protected class(es) (intentionally or not) without a legitimate business justification, you're breaking the law in the US. Sounds like this is what is happening, in this case the protected classes are age > 40 and disability status. You should take a break from the "canyoneering" and work on compliance.

It's also just bad business to limit yourself to hiring such a small subset of the population - people who are young, single, and bored enough to spend all their free time doing company activities.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#215

Post by Suntracker » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 12:29 PM UTC

The phrase "Culture Fit" has many shades and hues. Generally, the hiring manager and his/her team would take a call on "cultural aspect", which in principle should be a fair representation of the company culture. But on many occasions that may not be case. If a manager has a bias and certain prejudicial views, it becomes culture of the team/group. In that case, a "culture fit" aspect of interview is meaningless.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#216

Post by rleigh » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 1:15 PM UTC

mmirate wrote: post #134

rleigh wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you consider it bad to say no? Do you not expect your employees to exhibit independent thought and act professionally? If someone was asked to do something which was seriously wrong, wouldn't you want them to call it out rather than be a yes man and silently let something bad happen? If they explain exactly what's wrong and why, isn't that simply being professional? Or do you just want obedient slaves?

From the perspective of a dev: why should I be anything less than a yes-man, on topics where the decision authority clearly isn't mine? The ACM Code of Ethics has no teeth, meaning CS isn't a profession; and even if the decision in question is so thoroughly self-destructive that the company goes under, there's plenty more companies to work-for in that case.

This point about ethics was so important, I thought I'd follow up with a more detailed example.

In a previous position (well over a decade ago, for a company which no longer exists), I was asked by my boss to do something which was both unethical and possibly illegal. Loyalty to your company and wanting to keep your job is one thing, but we all have lines we are unwilling to cross, and this crossed one of mine. I considered my position, and refused to have anything to do with it; I did not want to be remotely associated or culpable to any degree. In the meantime, I considered my future, and decided that I couldn't in good conscience continue to work for the company. I made my plans for the future, secured them, and I handed in my notice a short number of weeks later.

We all have a duty and personal choice to conduct ourselves ethically, even if that means taking it on the chin and finding another job. To ignore it is to implicitly condone it and the increase of suffering and evil in the world as a consequence. I do wonder how the subset of the employees of Uber, Facebook, Google etc. who are knowingly engaged in unethical and/or illegal work justify it to themselves.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#217

Post by chooseaname » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 1:47 PM UTC

kgilpin wrote: post #37

I'm in agreement with other commenters here that "culture fit" usually feels like a euphemism for something else. I think what it's really about is explained here in the article: "A single toxic employee who is a bad fit for the existing culture can tank the morale and productivity of an entire team. " So, is there really more to "culture fit" than the No Asshole Rule (1)? If not, can we start calling it what it is:…

I think at some places it starts off as the "no asshole rule", but then as you start hiring more people like the rest of the team, that will lead to actual discrimination. If you have a team of early 30 somethings, they may not want a young 20 something or an older 40 something on the team because, well, they're not like the other team members. And it's not always explicitly "we don't want 40 somethings". It is simply implicit in the way you hire. But implicit or explicit, it's still wrong.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#218

Post by astura » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 2:13 PM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #176

wrs wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I’m an “older coder”, though my knees are doing OK, but never in my life would I have wanted to work at a place where there’s mandatory attendance at ski trips and zip-lining. That sounds utterly awful. Maybe you’re attributing something to age that is just a matter of taste? And maybe that’s not a good way to limit your hiring?

Nothing was mandatory and, in fact, the team leads purposefully organized events to be inclusive to everyone on the team. That was the whole point...by including an older, less-physically-capable team member, it was no longer an option to do fun, youth-oriented team events. And that person was excluded from work-related conversations that happened at after-work bar trips, which caused some awkwardness when the rest o…

>Nothing was mandatory

Sounds like it was mandatory.

>And that person was excluded from work-related conversations that happened at after-work bar trips, which caused some awkwardness when the rest of the team aligned behind a significant decision and the excluded team member felt like he wasn't consulted.

If not going creates a problem, it's mandatory, period.

Additionally, arranging your work discussions and decisions around alcohol consumption can absolutely be considered religions discrimination as many people don't consume alcohol for religious reasons and you certainly don't have any business justification for it. Also discrimination on pregnancy status.

I'm sorry but "some employees desire youth-oriented forced 'socialization' after work hours" is not a justification for breaking the law, it just isn't.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#219

Post by gaius » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 2:40 PM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #176

wrs wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I’m an “older coder”, though my knees are doing OK, but never in my life would I have wanted to work at a place where there’s mandatory attendance at ski trips and zip-lining. That sounds utterly awful. Maybe you’re attributing something to age that is just a matter of taste? And maybe that’s not a good way to limit your hiring?

Nothing was mandatory and, in fact, the team leads purposefully organized events to be inclusive to everyone on the team. That was the whole point...by including an older, less-physically-capable team member, it was no longer an option to do fun, youth-oriented team events. And that person was excluded from work-related conversations that happened at after-work bar trips, which caused some awkwardness when the rest o…

by including an older, less-physically-capable team member, it was no longer an option to do fun, youth-oriented team events

No disabled people nor pregnant women either then? This company is practically begging to be sued into oblivion.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#220

Post by jdauriemma » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 3:00 PM UTC

If your company culture is valuable to you, articulate the things that make it valuable and write them down. Make sure the criteria are specific and measurable, then apply them to the interview and evaluation process.