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What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

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Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#31

Post by nradov »

LanceH wrote: post #8
ska wrote: post #5

In my experience "Candidate X isn't a good cultural fit" has almost always been used as short had for either "I don't want us to hire them, but I can't articulate why in way I am comfortable with" or less often "What an asshole". I don't think I've ever been part of a conversation about "cultural fit" that wasn't swimming in bullshit, or at least wading in it.

A big classifier I've seen that gets put under "cultural fit" is the "it's not my job" problem. A startup can't have people saying that, but big enterprise companies live by it. Some people just can't transition from one to the other. I've found in interviews that some people expect to do exactly what their credentials have prepared them for. At least for the places I've worked, that's insufficient for programming an…

My first job involving any real technical work was as a PC repair technician in a small independent store. One day the owner told one of the other technicians to empty the garbage can because it was overflowing and everyone else was busy. The other tech refused and went on some bullshit rant about how he was a computer technician, not a garbageman. That made a real impression on me and since then I've tried to pitch in and do whatever needs doing regardless of whether it's in my explicit job description or not.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#32

Post by harryh »

theorique wrote: post #26
harryh wrote: post #15

I'm pretty suspicious about most conversations about culture fit: I think they are more smoke than fire. Especially in technology, where it's a seller's market for labor I don't think a lot of companies are actually screening on this criterion. Do they think you are smart and can do the work? Then companies are going to want to hire you with the possible exception of if they think you are a huge asshole or complete w…

In my experience, culture fit is exactly that - a nice way of saying that the candidate was "a huge asshole or complete weirdo." It's shorthand for "I think they could probably do the work, but I don't think that I/we could actually stand working with this particular candidate".

Ya.

Are you a sports loving bro? I don't care.

Are you an arty hipster? I don't care.

Are you a birkenstock wearing vegan nature lover? I don't care.

Do you yell at people when you get upset over minor disagreements? Well that's gonna be a problem....

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#33

Post by bunderbunder »

tbrownaw wrote: post #11
Analemma_ wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Candidate X isn't a good cultural fit" has almost always been used as short had for either "I don't want us to hire them, but I can't articulate why in way I am comfortable with" Either that or "I don't want us to hire them, but I can't say why because it would be against the law." "Culture fit" has mostly become a loophole for anti-discrimination laws.

"Culture fit" has mostly become a loophole for anti-discrimination laws. Is this just gut feel, or based on actual data? Because it sounds contrary to the survey results described in the article.

Well, the whole 3rd paragraph of the article is talking about how a poorly implemented culture fit criterion can be a place for bias to hide. I would assume that that was meant to mean all kinds of bias, not just bias that has nothing to do with any protected classes.

The survey itself was all qualitative, self-reported data. People aren't typically aware of their own racial, gender, etc. biases, so one wouldn't expect to see that being something they up and volunteer in their responses even if it is a factor in how their "culture fit" screen works out in practice.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#34

Post by mikro2nd »

theorique wrote: post #18
ammon wrote: post #7

An interesting point that I ended up cutting from the blog post is that companies also use culture as a selling point to convince candidates to join. We have seen this work (convince a candidate to take an offer). However, most companies underestimate how similar their culture pitch is to other pitches candidates hear. I think these pitches are less effective than most companies think they are.

Culture: "we have a billiards table and like craft beer. YOU SIMPLY CANNOT FIND ANOTHER STARTUP LIKE US!" /sarcasm

Interviewee: That's good. I BREW craft beer.

/gotcha

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#35

Post by DoofusOfDeath »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #10
ammon wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conversations involved me asking them to talk through the details of their interview process and decision-making. I think there were good incentives for companies be honest (given the context of us matching engineers with them). I did the classification into types of screening after, based on my notes.

It’s still hard to know what this means. For example, all the senior engineers I currently work with are great at telling a story about how they look to hire based on talent, self-awareness, critical thinking, and many soft skills, and that the technical particulars are only incidental guideposts. Then they proceed to ask candidates to derive a card shuffling algorithm on a whiteboard in 30 minutes and fail them from…

> For example, all the senior engineers

I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're using hyperbole in two ways here: (a) you make a statement about all the senior engineers you know, and (b) that statement makes a rather extreme claim about how they evaluate candidates.

I think using hyperbole is a mistake in this conversation because we're interested specifically in how common and how intense these phenomena are.

(I don't mean to single you out. This thought has also occurred to me when reading other online discussions lately.)

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#36

Post by paulie_a »

theorique wrote: post #26
harryh wrote: post #15

I'm pretty suspicious about most conversations about culture fit: I think they are more smoke than fire. Especially in technology, where it's a seller's market for labor I don't think a lot of companies are actually screening on this criterion. Do they think you are smart and can do the work? Then companies are going to want to hire you with the possible exception of if they think you are a huge asshole or complete w…

In my experience, culture fit is exactly that - a nice way of saying that the candidate was "a huge asshole or complete weirdo." It's shorthand for "I think they could probably do the work, but I don't think that I/we could actually stand working with this particular candidate".

Or on the flip side you interview with numerous people and some how manage to rub one of the ten the wrong way...or hell maybe that one individual got cut off on the way to work and is in a bad mood.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#37

Post by kgilpin »

I'm in agreement with other commenters here that "culture fit" usually feels like a euphemism for something else. I think what it's really about is explained here in the article:

"A single toxic employee who is a bad fit for the existing culture can tank the morale and productivity of an entire team. "

So, is there really more to "culture fit" than the No Asshole Rule (1)? If not, can we start calling it what it is: "asshole rejection screening". Then maybe we can use the word "culture fit" less (maybe even "culture" less), because requiring new employees to "fit a culture" is pretty lacking in concrete justification.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_No_Asshole_Rule

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#38

Post by stcredzero »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #10
ammon wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conversations involved me asking them to talk through the details of their interview process and decision-making. I think there were good incentives for companies be honest (given the context of us matching engineers with them). I did the classification into types of screening after, based on my notes.

It’s still hard to know what this means. For example, all the senior engineers I currently work with are great at telling a story about how they look to hire based on talent, self-awareness, critical thinking, and many soft skills, and that the technical particulars are only incidental guideposts. Then they proceed to ask candidates to derive a card shuffling algorithm on a whiteboard in 30 minutes and fail them from…

Then they proceed to ask candidates to derive a card shuffling algorithm on a whiteboard in 30 minutes and fail them from the interview if the running time complexity would be too high or if they can’t mathematically prove the result would be a uniform draw from the space of permutations of the cards.

For a company that runs an online game server, let's say, this really isn't that high a bar.

I know off the top of my head that there's some edge case that can keep you from getting an even distribution, but otherwise 1st year probability and 1st year algorithms knowledge should be enough for that. The proof is a slow-ball and the algorithmic complexity is a slow-ball in your example.

it’s about the extreme myopia in tech where these people actually believe they are sleuthing out the inner talents and dispositions of candidates when they are obviously doing nothing but berating candidates with parochial, uninformative trivia.

Or, it could be about weeding out students who got by with nothing more than gluing libraries together and really only thought of degree work as a formality while they were busy networking.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#39

Post by stcredzero »

mikro2nd wrote: post #34
theorique wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Culture: "we have a billiards table and like craft beer. YOU SIMPLY CANNOT FIND ANOTHER STARTUP LIKE US!" /sarcasm

Interviewee: That's good. I BREW craft beer. /gotcha

In that case, the interviewee is eliminated for failing to recognize the sarcasm.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#40

Post by LanceH »

theorique wrote: post #17
LanceH wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big classifier I've seen that gets put under "cultural fit" is the "it's not my job" problem. A startup can't have people saying that, but big enterprise companies live by it. Some people just can't transition from one to the other. I've found in interviews that some people expect to do exactly what their credentials have prepared them for. At least for the places I've worked, that's insufficient for programming an…

Do you mean that the candidate is too inclined to say "that's not my job" when they might be called upon to perform tasks that lie outside their narrow area of focus?

I'm not slamming someone for saying that. At a huge company they will be exactly right and may fit in great there. If they can't change that opinion when working at a startup, maybe they aren't the best employee #7.

"I like to work on a team with strictly defined roles."

"I like to know exactly what I'm working on from day to day."

"I prefer to have my worked planned out weeks/months/years in advance."

All three valid, but not necessarily great for a startup.

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