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The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

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Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#251

Post by paulddraper »

nafey wrote: post #2

But what was the alternative to the bailouts? Another depression? I feel we made it across fairly well.

> But what was the alternative to the bailouts?

Nothing.

> Another depression?

Recession/depression/whatever, that's exactly what we had. At that stage of things, it was essentially unavoidable.

> I feel we made it across fairly well.

The billions and billions and billions spent by the federal government didn't come from nowhere. They came from taxes (which didn't increase) or deficit financing (which did increase), thus crowding out the investment market and making the recovery much longer.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#252

Post by PurpleBoxDragon »

gutnor wrote: post #51
lucozade wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it their failure you believe they should be jailed for or something else? Do you believe that the CEO of any company that fails should be jailed or just banks? There was undoubtedly plenty of hubris, greed and incompetence to go round. I also believe that some of what occurred should, in hindsight, have been illegal. But having some sort of sacrifice to appease the gods is a little outdated. Oh, and yes, all the C…

> I also believe that some of what occurred should, in hindsight, have been illegal. That is the main issue. Nothing you can do against individuals that acted legally. However hindsight happened very quickly, almost from day 1. There is no excuse that the bailouts didn't come with extremely punitive string attached only loosened after the law had been updated. That did not happen. There is no moral to the story, no h…

>That is the main issue. Nothing you can do against individuals that acted legally.

We can punish them for actions deemed wrong even if legal. We do it to the poorest of criminals all the time, through creative legal maneuvers that judges have decided don't violate ex post facto. It is telling that we never do this for white collar crime.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#253

Post by ThomPete »

dhimes wrote: post #90
ThomPete wrote: post #70

The best explanation I have heard of the financial crisis was in the book "The End of Alchemy: Money, Banking and the Future of the Global Economy" by the former head of Bank of England. It makes the convincing case that there is no real single place to point fingers and that the crash was the logical consequence of people all doing the "right thing" I can highly recommend it as it also takes a historical view of mon…

Without reading the book or even TFA, I'll comment on the concept of everybody doing the "right thing" leading to bad outcomes. I have a hunch that this is a pretty universal law, and the only way to mitigate it is through regulations that ban some of those "right things." I think that honest, moral players welcome good regulations because it keeps them from having to go down a slippery slope.

Problem is that you don't know what the good regulations is because you don't know their consequences in the long run.

Clinton wanted to allow people to afford and buy a home because he knew for many of them that was the way out. That's why he put out executive orders back in the 90ies under his National Homeownership Strategy where they introduced more flexible underwriting rules.

Among many other things he put out federal orders out and banks were required to allow people with questioble economic abilities to get approved.

So it's not that simple.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#254

Post by paulddraper »

Gys wrote: post #111
netsharc wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help but believe that if the common folk of Europe of the last, say 10 years, was doing economically better, they would have been more generous with people fleeing warzones looking for help...

Doing economically well makes people more generous ? Do you know research to backup your believe ? Its not what I experience around me. The more we have, the more afraid we can loose it again, it seems to me.

Study of High Net Worth Philanthropy is published every few years. https://www.ustrust.com/publish/content/application/pdf/GWMO...

That's focuses only on the wealthy ($200k income or $1m assets), but within that group, higher incomes consistently donate a greater percentage to charity.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#255

Post by ThomPete »

guelo wrote: post #97
ThomPete wrote: post #70

The best explanation I have heard of the financial crisis was in the book "The End of Alchemy: Money, Banking and the Future of the Global Economy" by the former head of Bank of England. It makes the convincing case that there is no real single place to point fingers and that the crash was the logical consequence of people all doing the "right thing" I can highly recommend it as it also takes a historical view of mon…

Everybody gets their propaganda from different places but I'm pretty sure the European political upheaval was caused by the Syrian refugee crisis not the welfare system.

That started long before the Syrian crisis and it wasn't the wellsystem in general but that it allows for people who come to the EU to get pretty solid benefits without anything in return which helps create ghettos and doesn't incentifies them to integrate with the rest of society.

Again these are just some of the unintended consequences of good intentions.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#256

Post by ThomPete »

cycrutchfield wrote: post #158
ThomPete wrote: post #70

The best explanation I have heard of the financial crisis was in the book "The End of Alchemy: Money, Banking and the Future of the Global Economy" by the former head of Bank of England. It makes the convincing case that there is no real single place to point fingers and that the crash was the logical consequence of people all doing the "right thing" I can highly recommend it as it also takes a historical view of mon…

>Mixed with that and the liberal social welfare system in Europe and PC culture which claimed any critical voice was facist, racist etc Sorry, what does the social welfare system have to do with any of that stuff? You may have some valid points somewhere in there but it is completely undermined by that rambling screed of a last paragraph.

I was giving a counter to the claim that it was the 2008 financial crisis which led to the anti-establishment.

I am not judging the merits of the anti-establishment. All I am saying is that those other factors played a much bigger and important role than the crash ever did and given that we are far way from that crash and still see a rise of anti-establishment I feel pretty confident that I am correct.

If you look at the rise of the right-leaning nationalistic parties today one of their primary issues is that the welfare systems and political systems seem much more occupied with helping immigrants than it's own citizens.

Again I am simply pointing to the actual rationale from these people which isn't about the 1% or any other such thing. They aren't against the rich they are against the cultural elite and politicians who support globalization without taking care of it's own citizens first (again in their mind)

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#257

Post by fzzzy »

Lavery wrote: post #231

In a lot of ways, the current expression of the tech sector (certainly from a valuation standpoint) and the startup scene particularly feels like a consequence of the response to the financial crisis. Critics of the Fed spent years loudly worrying about how the various QE programs were going to drive up inflation. Of course, this didn't materialize, at least as measured in the usual basket of goods and services. What…

I'd just like to point out that the tech pay explosion likely has a lot to do with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#258

Post by ThomPete »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #77
ThomPete wrote: post #70

The best explanation I have heard of the financial crisis was in the book "The End of Alchemy: Money, Banking and the Future of the Global Economy" by the former head of Bank of England. It makes the convincing case that there is no real single place to point fingers and that the crash was the logical consequence of people all doing the "right thing" I can highly recommend it as it also takes a historical view of mon…

I can point to all the underwriters that approved loans with no income verification, fraudulent paperwork, officially stating they did checks for a physically impossible number of mortgages.

I don't think the underwriters fully understood the consequences of what they did. Rather they were numbed by their previous ability to invent new products and systems that would solve the problem of the previous.

The system is larger than anyone ability to understand it.

So yes what they did were wrong but not in some grand mastermind way and thus the real problem IMO is the system.

And yes if you do something illegal you should be prosecuted. But have they?

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#259

Post by ThomPete »

kakarot wrote: post #160
ThomPete wrote: post #70

The best explanation I have heard of the financial crisis was in the book "The End of Alchemy: Money, Banking and the Future of the Global Economy" by the former head of Bank of England. It makes the convincing case that there is no real single place to point fingers and that the crash was the logical consequence of people all doing the "right thing" I can highly recommend it as it also takes a historical view of mon…

The "right thing" in a game theory sense?

In "their mind" sense.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#260

Post by ThomPete »

mercurysmessage wrote: post #131
ThomPete wrote: post #70

The best explanation I have heard of the financial crisis was in the book "The End of Alchemy: Money, Banking and the Future of the Global Economy" by the former head of Bank of England. It makes the convincing case that there is no real single place to point fingers and that the crash was the logical consequence of people all doing the "right thing" I can highly recommend it as it also takes a historical view of mon…

"Mixed with that and the liberal social welfare system in Europe and PC culture which claimed any critical voice was facist, racist etc. That's why the antiestablishment came about not because of 2008 and wallstreet." Oh come on, this is ridiculous. Pointing out fascism and racism doesn't turn people fascist or racist. If you think there aren't some problems with racism and fascists I don't know what to tell you, bec…

You are missing my point or I am not explaining it very well.

The point is that that this is what I think, but rather this is what the people who join the antiestablishment think.

The article claims that 2008 is the reason and that couldn't be further from the truth since we financially are even better off today than right before 2008.

The people who joined occupy Wallstreet aren't the people who vote for those political parties.

It has nothing to do with whether there is racism or not that's a completely different discussion. We are talking politics which means we are talking perception here not some "true" interpretation of reality (which neither of us have)

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