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The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

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Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#81

Post by pas »

imgabe wrote: post #57
lucozade wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it their failure you believe they should be jailed for or something else? Do you believe that the CEO of any company that fails should be jailed or just banks? There was undoubtedly plenty of hubris, greed and incompetence to go round. I also believe that some of what occurred should, in hindsight, have been illegal. But having some sort of sacrifice to appease the gods is a little outdated. Oh, and yes, all the C…

It was not failure. It was at the very least gross negligence, if not outright theft and fraud.

Civil society decided that retroactive application of laws is a very bad idea.

So prevention is the name of the game. But that requires competent regulators and oversight. Compliance and reporting laws, and so on. Investigators with staff and time, prosecutors willing to chase a case, and of course independent judges.

The SEC and DoJ could have tried to bring more charges, and they got billions in deferred prosecution agreements, maybe not enough though. (They - I mean DPAs - are not shiny like a jail time verdict, but they do work pretty well https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/soci-t-g-n-rale-sa-agrees-pay... see also https://scholarship.law.unc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?httpsred... )

If we want to make up for the money lost by the innocent, then we can chose to tax those we think benefited. But that's completely different than blind vengeance.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#82

Post by lotsofpulp »

chrisweekly wrote: post #48
lotsofpulp wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends what proportion of them are kept content with mediocre food, shelter, and a slimmer of hope that their kids can move up in the game. And as long as the security guards (military and police) are kept happy and well equipped, then a small number of them should be able to keep the rest in line. Debt is the smart way to keep them in the hamster wheel. Edit: fixed contempt to content

contempt -> content

Thanks, missed that auto correct!

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#83

Post by josefresco »

andrepd wrote: post #41
nafey wrote: post #2

But what was the alternative to the bailouts? Another depression? I feel we made it across fairly well.

The bailouts are controversial, but it's the bailouts AND the complete absence of criminal responsibility that's inexcusable. It is well known and documented that the financial crisis was no accident; everybody who headed the financial services industry to the state it was in did so knowingly , knowing full well the inevitable consequences, but not giving a damn because the arrangement let them to become handsomely w…

Confidence in the market, and preventing panic was the highest priority, which is why no bank executive was punished in any meaningful way.

Frontline did a great piece on this, which I watched years ago. Not sure if this is it: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/meltdown/

I believe it also explains why the election hacking of 2016 wasn't and isn't being addressed fully. If the US were to admit actual votes were changed it would create panic and instability. It also doesn't help that one side literally invited the hacking, and refused to investigate because it helped them. I'm sure there were tons of people who made good money in 2008, who weren't eager for investigation or actual reform.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#84

Post by empath75 »

ThomPete wrote: post #70

The best explanation I have heard of the financial crisis was in the book "The End of Alchemy: Money, Banking and the Future of the Global Economy" by the former head of Bank of England. It makes the convincing case that there is no real single place to point fingers and that the crash was the logical consequence of people all doing the "right thing" I can highly recommend it as it also takes a historical view of mon…

> to take away opportunities from its own citizens and start giving it to countries like China after the fall of Soviet Union.

Citation needed

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#85

Post by chiefalchemist »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #76
chiefalchemist wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fairly safe to say, the conspiracy that created the collapse amounted to financial terrorism , and then (to fix things) extortion. We have the laws. What we lack if the will and the power to apply them. Economist had calculated a significant number of deaths (worldwide) resulted from the 2007 / 2008 crisis. I believe the number was approx 30,000 (but it may be higher). Editorial: If we don't have laws fo…

Financial terrorism isn’t even defined as a crime. It would have to racketeering or something, not easy things to prove even in gang/mob cases. Legislative neglect also isn’t a crime that lawmakers can be prosecuted under. You can, however, not vote for them during their reelection campaign. You can also vote for lawmakers that would bother to push for such laws. For better or worse, western countries are generally s…

Perhaps. Not being snarky but how do you establish precedent if you don't try? In the context of justice, I find it troubling the (US) gov made no effort.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#86

Post by wuschel »

vinceguidry wrote: post #14

The takeaway I got from reading the article to the end does not match the impression given by the headline, though the headline isn't exactly wrong, per se. The conclusion given is that the mechanisms put in place to avoid another recession work just fine but that the political will to use them has been dried up by the political retrenchment of the right. That said, if you're at all curious, you should read the artic…

Just had to look up what you mean by 'alt-right':

Quoting Wikipedia:

"The alt-right, or alternative right, is a loosely-connected and somewhat ill-defined grouping of white supremacists/white nationalists, neo-Nazis, neo-fascists, neo-Confederates, Holocaust deniers, and other far-right fringe hate groups."

This does not sound like the average citizen to me, but rather the extreme part of the spectrum of values.

I'd rather be with Popper's position on a valiant, liberal society, and will not accept people who stand against human dignity, protection of minorities, and the lessons from history. There are no excuses for doing this.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#87

Post by RickJWagner »

As long as there have been economies there have been periodic upheavals. I don't think that can be changed.

What can be changed is how the next meltdown/booming economy will affect our own personal finances. It's a life skill, one that should be given more attention in school.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#88

Post by freddie_mercury »

sidstling wrote: post #19

I don't think I agree with the article. Not from a European perspective. I'm Danish and we've had anti-establishment parties all my life on both the left and right side of the political spectrum. The populist rightwingers most similar to Trump and the teaparty saw their dawn in 1998 where they got elected with 7.4% of the votes. In 2001, three months after 9/11, they recived 12%. In 2005 it was 13.3%. In 2007, before…

Tooze makes the case that Fidesz's victory in Hungary in 2010 was a direct result of the terms of the IMF bailout. That the supremacy of the Law & Justice party in Poland was a result of the crisis. That the fall of Tymoshenko and Yushchenko -- tarred with the pains of the crisi -- in Ukraine led to rehabilitation of Yanukovych and the subsequent Russian invasion of Crimea.

In Greece the populists didn't take power in the same ways but it is disingenuous to pretend they didn't exist and exert power as a result of the crisis. To call New Democracy -- the party that took power after the crisis -- "not populist" is a mis-reading of history, I think. They campaigned on fear of illegal immigrants, after all. And the second biggest party is SYRIZA -- which is definitely populist -- and which didn't even exist until the crisis destroyed PASOK. And by 2015 SYRIZA's clearly populist platform was enough to take it power in Greece.

One of the themes of Tooze's book isn't that the consequences were immediate. Sure, it took 6-7 years for SYRIZA to get to power in Greece. But that is still a direct consequence of the crisis.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#89

Post by Marazan »

ThomPete wrote: post #70

The best explanation I have heard of the financial crisis was in the book "The End of Alchemy: Money, Banking and the Future of the Global Economy" by the former head of Bank of England. It makes the convincing case that there is no real single place to point fingers and that the crash was the logical consequence of people all doing the "right thing" I can highly recommend it as it also takes a historical view of mon…

The rating agencies absolutely did not do the right thing. There were contemporary pre-crash criticisms of their rating of mortgage backed securities so this is not Monday morning quarter backing

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#90

Post by dhimes »

ThomPete wrote: post #70

The best explanation I have heard of the financial crisis was in the book "The End of Alchemy: Money, Banking and the Future of the Global Economy" by the former head of Bank of England. It makes the convincing case that there is no real single place to point fingers and that the crash was the logical consequence of people all doing the "right thing" I can highly recommend it as it also takes a historical view of mon…

Without reading the book or even TFA, I'll comment on the concept of everybody doing the "right thing" leading to bad outcomes.

I have a hunch that this is a pretty universal law, and the only way to mitigate it is through regulations that ban some of those "right things." I think that honest, moral players welcome good regulations because it keeps them from having to go down a slippery slope.

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