A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes • Hacker News Board

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#201

Post by Sharlin » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 12:46 AM UTC

amyjess wrote: post #153

cbhl wrote: post #7

There's a simple solution to this -- buses! We don't even need public tax dollars to pay for them. There were plenty of startups that wanted to run "Uber, but with a bus instead of a Car" and they all died because of regulation from the cities. Hell, Google (and other tech companies) will happily pay for its own buses to reduce VMT, but taking away street parking to add bus stops is political suicide in San Francisco…

I used to take the bus, before I discovered Lyft. The buses were a nightmare, and as soon as I started using Lyft, I stopped taking PT and never looked back. I had many, many reasons for this. The people on the buses were horrible. People blasting loud music without headphones was an almost daily occurrence on my commute. Despite there being signs on the bus explicitly forbidding it. If I was lucky, I'd be sitting cl…

Unfortunately I think this tells a lot more about your society than it does about buses in general.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#202

Post by macspoofing » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 12:48 AM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #184

macspoofing wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why does it have to be an anti-car narrative, or something insidious Because there is an ideological (i.e. irrational) component to some objections. It's true. >Why do you think limited-supply medallion systems existed in the first place Taxi lobby pressuring municipal governments? I cannot imagine you using the past system as an example of a well-run program. There was never a good reason to limit the number of tax…

> Taxi lobby pressuring municipal governments? I cannot imagine you using the past system as an example of a well-run program. There was never a good reason to limit the number of taxicabs on the streets. There were good reasons for some regulations, such as driver registration, transparent pricing, vehicle standards, but not regulations around limiting number of vehicles. New York implemented a medallion system beca…

>New York implemented a medallion system because Manhattan is a long, narrow island with high travel demand.

I'm sure it was well intentioned ... initially. And then it became a boondoggle that protected the invested capital of medallion owners.

>Commuters, shoppers etc. do own cars and clog streets during the peak hours, but commuters and shoppers also park their cars while they're off doing their jobs and errands; taxis are constantly driving for fares.

OK. But they aren't just driving around. They are moving people meaning there is a public good being served. I have no doubt there will be traffic LIKE THERE IS TODAY and customers will price that in. If traffic gets too terrible, more people will move to mass public transit LIKE THEY DO TODAY. When I'm in New York or Hong Kong, I'd love to be able to cab or uber it everywhere but I don't because many times a 10 minute trip will take an hour - so I opt for subway in many cases. An equilibrium which balances price, convenience, time, etc. will be established - so don't fight it, let it establish itself.

I didn't even talk about costs. Low density transit options like Taxis/Ubers are pricey compared to high density transit options liks buses and subways - people will opt for those just for price alone. You see that with the daily commute to work where even affluent people will take the subway instead of cabbing it. I did that because Uber is great for going to a bar on a Friday night, but it sucks to pay $30/day on a round-trip to work ... and subways are faster during rush hour.

>Were medallion prices high? Sure.

Talk about an understatement.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#203

Post by lewis500 » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 12:52 AM UTC

bcheung wrote: post #195

lewis500 wrote: post #15

I don’t understand why this study is receiving so much attention. It’s not peer reviewed. It doesn’t contain actual data collection (the estimates are all extrapolated in a way the author considers reasonable, not measured data from traffic detectors or surveys). Schaller is not a researcher or engineer, but a consultant mainly working for taxi regulation. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong. But I’m surprised the study get…

While not very well supported the arguments do make sense logically and it is enough to get people thinking about the problem. Sure, more rigor is nice but it's not necessary to get people to start looking at a problem. I don't think someone needs to be an authority to raise legitimate concerns. That shouldn't be a requirement because otherwise we run into "appeal to authority" types of fallacies. It does make an int…

I am more expressing surprise that a consultant can get their ideas covered so widely by posting a paper on their website. I searched and there are dozens of articles reporting these claims. I think it speaks to a general scorn for Uber and lyft that any bad news about them gets clicks. But the estimates could be true just like half the estimates or double the estimates could be true also.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#204

Post by brewdad » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 12:58 AM UTC

henryfjordan wrote: post #33

sharkmerry wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Uber isn't perfect, but banning it doesn't magically fix the subway. There's no doubt there are issues with public transit, but letting the rideshare services run rampant, while being effectively subsidized by the taxpayers roads, etc is no solution either. >> U.S. ridership is surging, he said — up 37% last year, to 2.6 billion passengers, from 2016. >> It found that, in U.S. cities, 49% to 61% of ride-hailing tr…

I don't know about elsewhere, but in CA a lot of the road money comes from (or at least is supposed to come from) taxes on gasoline/diesel. https://taxfoundation.org/state-road-funding-2017/ That means that Rideshare drivers are largely paying their fair share.

Your own link tells you exactly how it is elsewhere. Did you read it?

It also shows that 38% of CA's road funding comes from sources not tied to motor vehicle use (meaning sales taxes, income taxes, etc). The median US state (NH at 25 and ID at 26 derive only 48% of their road budget from road user fees. IMO, that means rideshare drivers are far from paying their fair share.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#205

Post by megaremote » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 12:59 AM UTC

astura wrote: post #164

lotsofpulp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the major benefits in some cities of Uber/Lyft over public transportation is not risking interaction with thementally ill, inebriated, panhandlers, or otherwise dangerous people (like the dancers on the NYC subway).

I honestly, for the life of me, cannot understand this attitude. I just can't. I've taken public transport since birth, (by myself since I was 13). I've taken public transport all over the US and a few countries in Europe, including SF and NYC. The bus was my sole form of transportation for several years. I've never once felt unsafe. Mildly annoyed maybe, but never remotely unsafe. Whereas I've felt unsafe driving th…

Of course you can't. You actually use public transport. This is a common complaint from a car driver unwilling to change their way, and scraping or excuses, when they are just being selfish and lazy.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#206

Post by mancerayder » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 1:02 AM UTC

In NYC they cause woes because the public transit system has become a nightmare for those not in Manhattan, a la "The Outer Boroughs". Many Manhattan people barely register that there's an issue, and see more traffic than before. Oh gosh, the traffic is slow going uptown.

If only the trains weren't breaking down, signals weren't needing repair, there wasn't a mid 60 percent on-time rating at present. If only the train service wasn't cut so viciously weekends. If only subways themselves weren't filled with miscreants, behaving rudely by playing music on their phones, bringing bikes, etc. If the subway platforms weren't 100 degrees F during the summer, when the next train is 10 minutes away. If only the buses were an alternative, instead of being beset by slow traffic thanks to bicycle lanes, double parking that's not ticketed, construction vehicles, and parking on both sides of the street.

Then I'd be open to being concerned about the fact that I'm contributing to "traffic congestion" by taking Lyft and Uber (mostly Lyft) about 5x or more a week.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#207

Post by almost_usual » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 1:06 AM UTC

lhorie wrote: post #149

almost_usual wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely the same in SF, Uber / Lyft notoriously double park illegally.

In SF, I see people double parking everywhere, Uber or not - and I mean _parked_, not idling. My kid's school literally spent 20 minutes last parents night begging people not to do that in front of the school (and it's _still_ a problem). Going westbound on Golden Gate st around Fillmore is one of the weirdest thing I've ever seen. You can see entire lines of double parked cars with no drivers inside (sometimes on bo…

FYI many people double park on Golden Gate around Fillmore on Sundays because of church. I don’t think it’s technically legal but it’s not really enforced.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#208

Post by mc32 » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 1:07 AM UTC

tzs wrote: post #176

mc32 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For better or for worse, we are not like Singapore. Exorbitatly heavy fines, in these cases, barr the RIAA, and caning are not acceptable punishment in the US. I’m certain most people would not want Singaporean-style justice in the US.

RIAA asks for around $3/song when they catch someone pirating a large number of songs. The small handful of people who ended up higher got that way by being idiots. E.g., the most famous case, Jammie Thomas-Rasset, was caught sharing 1700 songs. The RIAA asked for $5000. She refused, so they sued. They sued over 24 of the songs. Why not sue over all 1700? Probably a couple reasons. First, if they sued over 1700 and w…

That’s an intetsting aspect i had not been aware of, altho i recall hers was not the only case involving outsized verdicts. But illuminating for sure. Thank you.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#209

Post by colemannugent » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 1:10 AM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #183

colemannugent wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...make healthcare and education free-or-nearly-so... Free for who?

Literally everyone. Imagine the tax income down the line if every citizen that wanted a high-training-required career could get that career. Imagine the burden reduction on welfare.

>Literally everyone.

and

>Imagine the tax income down the line...

are contradictory.

A better argument would be: "Increased education and welfare spending leads to more productivity and the added cost is offset by the increase in taxes due to the productivity gain". Or more simply: "Education and welfare are good investments".

Now we can have a serious conversation about the economic impacts of this kind of investment. But to market it as free is irresponsible. It it not free. At best we get more out than we put in, but by definition we must put in something.

That was the point of my original comment. Everything has a cost. Even an investment with a nearly guaranteed return comes at a cost and has a certain amount of risk associated with it.

Re: A new study says services like Uber and Lyft are causing urban traffic woes

#210

Post by kovacs » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 1:14 AM UTC

Uber/Lyft are taxi services. They need to be regulated. The cars need to be marked, have numbers, drivers accountable to the community (not just the passenger), for bad driving.

As a driver who's lived in SF for a long time I've seen first hand the terrible impact these services have had to the city. They clog streets and disregard any and all traffic laws. Just yesterday an Uber driver made a left turn from the middle lane on Hyde street. He backed up traffic as he refused to move until someone let him make his illegal turn. He was the recipient of a lot of honks.

His response? Gave everyone the finger after he finally made his left hand turn. Lovely. He should lose his license, period. In the days before these services existed cab drivers were petrified of getting in trouble. Many Uber/Lyft drivers are modern day lawless pirates.

A modern medallion system driven by traffic/ridership data with as little chance for corruption as possible would be the best answer to these problems. Uber/Lyft as they exist today cannot be allowed to continue if we value quality of life/safety.