What Companies Mean by Culture Fit • Hacker News Board

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#101

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 8:32 PM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #83

stcredzero wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they proceed to ask candidates to derive a card shuffling algorithm on a whiteboard in 30 minutes and fail them from the interview if the running time complexity would be too high or if they can’t mathematically prove the result would be a uniform draw from the space of permutations of the cards. For a company that runs an online game server, let's say, this really isn't that high a bar. I know off the top of my…

Even a seasoned expert who literally writes card shuffling software would have a difficult time writing a well-explained solution on a whiteboard in 30 minutes. Most candidates we interview have a combination of CS degrees, statistics degrees or experience, and are prepped ahead of time with some materials about the general type of question we might ask, and around 90% of them are rejected for failing to solve this q…

Even a seasoned expert who literally writes card shuffling software would have a difficult time writing a well-explained solution on a whiteboard in 30 minutes.

Sure. We used to give an hour, and HR reduced it to 45 minutes. I'd rather have more time. Also, you can dial up the stringency of this particular question to an expert level where hours could be used. Or, as you admit below, it can be dialed down considerably.

Around 50% are given extremely poor ratings, like not even getting any type of coherent solution, even inefficient and not handling corner cases.

You could also dial it back to where you accept a coherent, inefficient solution that at least shows an awareness of corner cases.

This process just filters out candidates who are perfectly capable of solving the problem as a form of severe risk aversion against possibly hiring someone who lacks sufficient technical skills.

So "myopia" in your view is the delusion that such a practice is anything more than that? There are plenty of people in our industry who know that's what it's really for and who know how bad whiteboard interviews are at this task. That doesn't mean the goal is worthless. It seems that many want the goalposts lowered, such that actually understanding anything isn't required anymore.

We know the test is bad and that something better should be developed. What I'm arguing against is lowering the standards and getting rid of the test altogether.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#102

Post by lovich » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 8:33 PM UTC

some_account wrote: post #92

rmason wrote: post #90

My experience about 'culture fit' was that it was a code word for ageism. Sometimes they'd be even more direct if I pushed back. This wasn't at the end of a 45 minute interview, it was in the first five minutes after I'd already passed the technical review. Might not be true in every instance, but I absolutely cringe when I hear that phrase.

We may not like it but yes, age matters for culture fit. I prefer people saying so instead of giving me bullshit reasons.

Might as well say "we may not like it, but yes, race matters for culture fit". Both are highly illegal and pretty unethical.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#103

Post by zoomablemind » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

some_account wrote: post #89

kgilpin wrote: post #37

I'm in agreement with other commenters here that "culture fit" usually feels like a euphemism for something else. I think what it's really about is explained here in the article: "A single toxic employee who is a bad fit for the existing culture can tank the morale and productivity of an entire team. " So, is there really more to "culture fit" than the No Asshole Rule (1)? If not, can we start calling it what it is:…

50 year old programmer in the middle of an open office with 25 year olds bouncing balls around, playing loud music - bad culture fit. Foreign middle aged man who can't speak the language very good in an environment where native language is important - not a good culture fit. Female 25 year old in a group of 50 year old men who mostly wants to relax at work and are a bit awkward around young women - bad culture fit. V…

Shouldn't then the job descriptions just mention that so it's obvious for the applicant beforehand?

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#104

Post by mikeleeorg » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 8:35 PM UTC

I once fell into the position of having to hire for a fast-growing new team at a large corporation. We didn't have a manager yet, so our department's VP trusted me to make hiring decisions.

I made the first 20-ish hires, then helped out with 20 more. When we eventually got a director and other managers who were peers to me, I held the informal distinction of being able to make good hiring calls. Many of my hires rose quickly in the company, earned strong performance reviews, and even won awards at the company.

Eventually, I become a middle manager and had to teach managers I supervised how to hire in a similar fashion. Relying on me to make a final call wasn't scalable.

And that's when trouble began.

A few bad hires leaked in. For the first time, our group experienced attrition. So I set about to try to systemize my recruiting process such that it was repeatable by others.

That's when I had to codify our team "culture", which was something I used to help with my hiring decisions. There were times when I made a call to hire a candidate who seemed too junior for a role, because I felt there was a strong "culture fit."

Of course, what I realized was, I was simply assessing for typical soft skills, as well as personality traits such as tenacity, initiative, quick study, etc.

In other words, there was no magic. I didn't have some special gift for hiring. It was just a simple unspoken template in my head. And it wasn't exactly "culture" either, as much as it was a set of personality traits that every company looks for.

I suppose what I came up with was basically a "structured culture fit screening assessment", to borrow the article's parlance. If you don't have something like this, I'd highly encourage that you look into it. Not only can it help minimize bias, but it can also give you a repeatable process for all of your company's hiring managers.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#105

Post by gmmeyer » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 8:38 PM UTC

rmason wrote: post #90

My experience about 'culture fit' was that it was a code word for ageism. Sometimes they'd be even more direct if I pushed back. This wasn't at the end of a 45 minute interview, it was in the first five minutes after I'd already passed the technical review. Might not be true in every instance, but I absolutely cringe when I hear that phrase.

Don't forget about race.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#106

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 8:38 PM UTC

lovich wrote: post #91

stcredzero wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem space for computer science algorithms is gigantic and many of these companies testing for this knowledge then immediately throw new engineers onto line of business CRUD apps and bug fixes, which rarely have the engineer implementing any of these algorithms from scratch. A programmer worth his salt should retain enough 1st principles knowledge to not create a O(n^3) bottleneck in production or otherwise st…

I agree it speaks to bad interviewing, because these whiteboard interviews are a bad interview practice. Yea knowing how to not acciddentally get an O(n^3) bottleneck is table stakes for development. What we get however is you interviewing for a job to make data entry apps and they ask you to implement a variety offlood fill algorithms with modifications that force edge cases unless you work around it. Or you'll be m…

Yea knowing how to not acciddentally get an O(n^3) bottleneck is table stakes for development.

It seems to me that a lot of younger folks want to lower the bar below that.

If you're looking for devs to show that they understand the ideas, you'd be better off telling them the problem space ahead of time so that they can prepare for it, and then deeply questioning their knowledge in that space

Perhaps combine that with a related but novel question.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#107

Post by rhizome » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 8:39 PM UTC

some_account wrote: post #92

rmason wrote: post #90

My experience about 'culture fit' was that it was a code word for ageism. Sometimes they'd be even more direct if I pushed back. This wasn't at the end of a 45 minute interview, it was in the first five minutes after I'd already passed the technical review. Might not be true in every instance, but I absolutely cringe when I hear that phrase.

We may not like it but yes, age matters for culture fit. I prefer people saying so instead of giving me bullshit reasons.

"Culture fit" has appeared to me to be an aspect of the mainstream, like if a company culture was defined by Coldplay.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#108

Post by kingnothing » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

some_account wrote: post #92

rmason wrote: post #90

My experience about 'culture fit' was that it was a code word for ageism. Sometimes they'd be even more direct if I pushed back. This wasn't at the end of a 45 minute interview, it was in the first five minutes after I'd already passed the technical review. Might not be true in every instance, but I absolutely cringe when I hear that phrase.

We may not like it but yes, age matters for culture fit. I prefer people saying so instead of giving me bullshit reasons.

And that's illegal.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#109

Post by stcredzero » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #75

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, all the senior engineers I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're using hyperbole in two ways here: (a) you make a statement about all the senior engineers you know, and (b) that statement makes a rather extreme claim about how they evaluate candidates. I think using hyperbole is a mistake in this conversation because we're interested specifically in how common and how intense these phenomena are. (I…

It is sincerely not hyperbole. My company has 12 principal engineers including me, and in the meeting where we discuss interviewing and hiring, the anecdote I described above is literally the standard of discourse. I can’t be certain that the same would have applied to all senior engineers in other companies where I previously worked. But I did interact with dozens of other senior engineers over the years and it’s a…

It’s not surprising either. We all like to tell ourselves stories about how we embody the best ideals that a broader community espouses, even when the reality of our day to day behavior is different.

That sometimes starts with a smaller community that takes such ideals seriously. It almost always ends with a much larger group that spouts those ideals but acts differently.

the implied values of tech orgs are no better or no more exemplary of positive human values than any other field of business

It's long been said that the practice of "Software Engineering" is more a technology heavy application of business and less like engineering.

Re: What Companies Mean by Culture Fit

#110

Post by watwut » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 8:43 PM UTC

grandmczeb wrote: post #87

watwut wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If too many people are in conflict with existing culture, then maybe the culture itself is a problem.

What counts as "too many"? Different groups have different needs when it comes to cohesiveness. It's up to company leadership to balance that requirement with openness/ease of hiring/etc.

Simply said, if only very rare kind of personality fits your needs and level of cohesiveness, then it is very likely that your culture would be more effective if it changed. Chances are, the culture is too ossified or otherwise unable to deal with changes, problems, differences of opinion or other exceptions from routine.

Different groups have different needs, but some of what groups call "need" is actually dysfunction.