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Why Can’t Apes Talk?

sapiens.org

51–60 of 66 posts

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#51

Hindus believes apes did talk at some point, or atleast one species existed that did talk. They were called Vanara. They no longer exist but this literature might point to some species that are now extinct, no fossilised evidence though would be hard to guage from fossils. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanara

That's not a Hindu belief, and is an overly modern reading of Hindu mythology.

Just like Hindu/Indo-European notions of asparas/wood-nymphs doesn't imply the existence of and rationalization of a tribe of forest women, this isn't really a belief among Hindus about a former state of monkeyhood.

Ancient people simply believed in literally supernatural/estoeric things - they weren't "secretly" technologically advanced with a strange vocabulary we now read as religious.

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#52
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course we do: car races, bike races, but also human races yes. You may be confusing race and (sub)species .

> You may be confusing race and (sub)species There is a stigma with the word race and in many places (i.e. Europe) we learn that there is only one Human race, and only one Human species, as opposed to several "ethnic groups". Although the difference between race and ethnic group is vague. I've always wondered if it was just a taboo or not.

Race is indeed an ambiguous term in general, as there are overlaps. But I have to wonder whether it's the stigma associated to the word especially post WW2 and Nazi eugenics that made some anthropologists reconsider and say "most differences are cultural". There are obvious aesthetic (not functional) differences between populations. These are enough to distinguish between races within other species so I'm having a hard time finding an authoritative explanation for why it would be different for humans.

I find no challenge in treating people as equals without the need to think they are the same race so such an argument based on sociology is not as convincing as a biological one.

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#53
post #29

I read this book not long ago: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Next-Kin-Conversations-Chimpanzees-... And in it the author (who spent decades working with and teaching chimps) concludes that chimps have the intelligence to talk but not the vocal chords. They can understand humans talking (in the same way that a dog can understand verbal commands) but they cannot do much besides grunt or hoot back. However when you change th…

That kind of work was very poor methodologically and its results are best explained as the Clever Hans effect, as the animals generating random strings unconnected to a current context, or simply as over-zealous efforts to assign meaning to the animals' signing, by their handlers. See for example this article regarding the work of Francine Patterson with Koko: On the Evidence for Linguistic Abilities in Signing Apes…

> That kind of work was very poor methodologically and its results are best explained as the Clever Hans effect

I think you might be overreaching here! Roger Fouts was (and still is) an expert and I fear you may just be regurgitating information from a study that is nearly forty years old.

The book I mentioned earlier was written twenty years after the linked article and explicitly mentions the bias he experienced in an entire chapter alone. It counters and logically explains away a lot of the conclusions that they falsely arrived at. If I remember correctly one of the main reasons that studies in the 70s and 80s liked to play down the intelligence of chimps is that it allowed the "for profit" chimp research centers to continue operating. A lot of these studies were published and financed by people who would lose out if they had to provide better (and therefore more costly) conditions for their "dumb testing subjects".

As for the clever hans effect, Roger was extremely careful to not to selectively extract words and interpret them during his research. He even invited officials from the ASL institute to verify his findings first hand.

The clever hans effect also cannot explain away why chimps started signing to each other (when no humans were present and the chimps were being monitored by video) or why sometimes the chimps would sign to themselves (much in the same way that humans occasionally mumble to themselves).

I implore you (if you have the time) to read Roger's book. It really is an eye opener and very well written!

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#54
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That kind of work was very poor methodologically and its results are best explained as the Clever Hans effect, as the animals generating random strings unconnected to a current context, or simply as over-zealous efforts to assign meaning to the animals' signing, by their handlers. See for example this article regarding the work of Francine Patterson with Koko: On the Evidence for Linguistic Abilities in Signing Apes…

> That kind of work was very poor methodologically and its results are best explained as the Clever Hans effect I think you might be overreaching here! Roger Fouts was (and still is) an expert and I fear you may just be regurgitating information from a study that is nearly forty years old. The book I mentioned earlier was written twenty years after the linked article and explicitly mentions the bias he experienced in…

The tone of your comment is unpleasantly aggressive- I'm "regurgitating" information, you "implore" me to read a book, etc? Could you please keep the tone down, from now on? I will not continue this communication otherwise.

In any case, the article is old because the research it refers to is old and that research is old because the majority of interested scientists consider the question about great apes' language answered, and in the negative. A few holdouts, of course, will always refuse to give up their preferred theories. That doesn't mean they're right.

>> The clever hans effect also cannot explain away why chimps started signing to each other (when no humans were present and the chimps were being monitored by video) or why sometimes the chimps would sign to themselves (much in the same way that humans occasionally mumble to themselves).

Sure, but there's nothing stopping the apes from signing to each other, or to themselves, at random, without the signing actually meaning anything.

The point of the article I cite is that there is no way to know that because of the shoddy methodology followed in most such experiments.

As to the Clever Hans effect, this is what Noam Chomsky has to say:

>> CHOMSKY: Interesting story about poor Nim. The experiment was carried out by a very serious experimental psychologist, Herbert Terrace. A convinced Skinnerian [student of Behaviorist, B.F Skinner], he expected that if an ape was brought up just like a human it would be a little human. He had some very fine assistants, including some excellent former students of ours, and others who went on to be leading figures in the field. The experimentation was done with meticulous care. There’s a book, called Nim, which describes it, with great enthusiasm, claiming at the end that it was a grand success and the ape is ready to go on to great things. Then comes the epilogue. When the experiment was over, a grad student working on a thesis did a frame-by-frame analysis of the training, and found that the ape was no dope. If he wanted a banana, he’d produce a sequence of irrelevant signs and throw in the sign for banana randomly, figuring that he’d brainwashed the experimenters sufficiently so that they’d think he was saying “give me a banana.” And he was able to pick out subtle motions by which the experimenters indicated what they’d hope he’d do. Final result? Exactly what any sane biologist would have assumed: zero.

https://chomsky.info/2007____/

Another commenter in the parent thread also posted a link to a video where Chomsky discusses the Clever Hans effect in the Nim Chimpsky research in more detail.

>> If I remember correctly one of the main reasons that studies in the 70s and 80s liked to play down the intelligence of chimps is that it allowed the "for profit" chimp research centers to continue operating. A lot of these studies were published and financed by people who would lose out if they had to provide better (and therefore more costly) conditions for their "dumb testing subjects".

Those are very strong allegations of scientific misconduct, which of course we're not going to resolve on HN. However, I note that the people who published great ape language studies would benefit even more financially if they had managed to show that great apes can learn sign language.

In fact, the amount of money one would imagine them making would positively dwarf any expenses to improve the conditions of their subjects.

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#55
post #47
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Panchgavya has a patent from the previous regime. IIT Delhi is not a collection of extremist morons. I would much rather take somebody betting their career on something than the random opinion on the Internet. Ayurveda has been an established practice for a long time. Somebody needs to bet their career on disproving it or else I will continue benefiting from it. I don’t know why you bring up Jio Institute here. I don…

> Panchgavya has a patent from the previous regime Patent on what ? Let me leave this for you from the same article "Vardhan, who was a member of Parliament from the Bharatiya Janata Party then, is now minister of science and technology. But in the years after the conference, the subject received no interest from the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance, which was in power till 2014. This changed when the BJP-led…

I haven't done research, but one possible explanation I heard about cow urine (organic grass fed) is in helping balancing the stomach bacteria. We as modern humans have still not fully understood the effects and side effects of gut flora completely. Even recently gut bacteria is linked to heart diseases.(#1: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170711093012.h..., #2: http://sciencenordic.com/gut-bacteria-flora-linked-chronic-h...). So we definitely have a long way to go in understanding our own body, which our forefathers might have gotten a better understanding.

Cow urine is also prescribed as a drug by Ayurveda, which isn't an occult science or anything and have survived well into modern age. Several practitioners of Ayurveda used advanced surgical technologies, perhaps first in the world.

e.g.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cataract_surgery#History https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Ancient_... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Ancient_...

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#56
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You may be confusing race and (sub)species There is a stigma with the word race and in many places (i.e. Europe) we learn that there is only one Human race, and only one Human species, as opposed to several "ethnic groups". Although the difference between race and ethnic group is vague. I've always wondered if it was just a taboo or not.

Race is indeed an ambiguous term in general, as there are overlaps. But I have to wonder whether it's the stigma associated to the word especially post WW2 and Nazi eugenics that made some anthropologists reconsider and say "most differences are cultural". There are obvious aesthetic (not functional) differences between populations. These are enough to distinguish between races within other species so I'm having a ha…

[deleted]

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#57
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans aren't divided into races.

Of course we do: car races, bike races, but also human races yes. You may be confusing race and (sub)species .

> car races, bike races, but also human races

That's what using a human language does to you. Other species do not have such issues, as they do not muck up their thought process with words.

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#58
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That kind of work was very poor methodologically and its results are best explained as the Clever Hans effect I think you might be overreaching here! Roger Fouts was (and still is) an expert and I fear you may just be regurgitating information from a study that is nearly forty years old. The book I mentioned earlier was written twenty years after the linked article and explicitly mentions the bias he experienced in…

The tone of your comment is unpleasantly aggressive- I'm "regurgitating" information, you "implore" me to read a book, etc? Could you please keep the tone down, from now on? I will not continue this communication otherwise. In any case, the article is old because the research it refers to is old and that research is old because the majority of interested scientists consider the question about great apes' language ans…

I didn’t perceive the comment you replied to as aggressive or confrontational. I use implore very neutral manner, and interpret the comment as disagreeing with you, but without aggression. Given tone of voice is lost in text only communication, it’s often wise to adopt the principle of charity in Interpretation.

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#59

Hindus believes apes did talk at some point, or atleast one species existed that did talk. They were called Vanara. They no longer exist but this literature might point to some species that are now extinct, no fossilised evidence though would be hard to guage from fossils. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanara

OMG, seriously, I am a Hindu and I don't believe apes did talk or we were flying around in pushpak vimanas. Anything that is described in mythology is mythology. Please enjoy reading it and read it to our kids, but tell them that it's a story. On the other hand if you want to do some solid work on bringing credibility to these mythical stuff mentioned in the stories, please do scientific research and try to back it w…

From what I have heard Rama is not a god in the original ramayana by valmiki. He is only a maryada purshottam - a man of best dignity and character. He became a god several thousand years later.
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