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Why Can’t Apes Talk?

sapiens.org

41–50 of 66 posts

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#41
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under the aegis of, Narendra "Ganesha is proof Hindus knew plastic surgery in vedic times" Modi, many self appointed spokesperson of what Hindu's believe in, have come out of the woodwork. They are the western analogue of humans riding on flying dinosaurs. Its the same phenomena. Now, we have our own Ku Klux Klan -- the cow rakshak's who are on a murderous spree with an implicit promise from the government that they…

It seems around the world being unscientific and plain stupid is a great asset for winning democratic elections. We will be horrified if a well know professional speaks such rubbish but somehow okay with the facts that such people can handle countries with multi-trillion dollar economy

I used to find some comfort in the fact that Indian politicians were in some ways better than the types of Michelle Bachman. They knew enough not to flaunt their ignorance and knew when they were out of their depth. Apparently no more.

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#42
post #37

From the tagline: A recent study suggests they’ve got the voice but not the brains. As pointed out early in the article, I had always read it was the other way around; their brains are advanced enough for rudimentary speech, but they lacked the vocal "hardware" that humans developed over time. The fact that they can learn to sign and show true understanding of a non-verbal language seems to contradict the article's g…

The article says that apes can't talk because of limitations in the part of the brain that controls the muscles of the mouth. Their ability to sign shows they do have the mental capacity to learn to communicate but with their hands. This may not extend to speech specifically for the reasons discussed in the article.

> because of limitations in the part of the brain that controls the muscles of the mouth

That makes it sound like it might be feasible to "fix" this. Maybe by implanting electrodes to stimulate these specific muscles and have the electrodes controlled by unrelated moto-neurons (or maybe capture the sign language and apply the correct stimulus).

How far are we from this, are there any research team working on this? Is it ethical to do it? Is it ethical not to do it if we have the means?

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#43
post #39
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need for “will”s. The term is near ended. Can you support your theory with real incidents? Which research was funded, which wasn’t funded?

That would be tall task and full time work for a full group. I am a single person with an unrelated day job. That said, here's a few: Panchgavya project, coordinated by the Indian Institute of Technology in Delhi, internally approved 34 proposals for research into panchgavya ... to make cow urine capsules http://unnat.iitd.ac.in/index.php/Pages/display/news/urine_c... https://thewire.in/the-sciences/cow-urine-distill…

Panchgavya has a patent from the previous regime.

IIT Delhi is not a collection of extremist morons. I would much rather take somebody betting their career on something than the random opinion on the Internet.

Ayurveda has been an established practice for a long time. Somebody needs to bet their career on disproving it or else I will continue benefiting from it.

I don’t know why you bring up Jio Institute here.

I don’t know why you missed part of your own link where the scientist says “Scientists supporting the march say the need is to recognise the actual contributions made by ancient Indians, often whitewashed by the European school of science history, rooted in the Enlightenment period. However, this is getting lost in talk of interplanetary travel and cosmetic surgery during the Vedic ages. This had been publicly denounced by Indian Nobel laureate V Ramakrishnan Anne. He even refused to attend the Indian Science Congress last year.“

This is just storm in a tea cup. I don’t remember seeing any cutbacks on any of the scientific programs. In fact some of the long awaited research programs like the neutrino lab came up.

So again what exactly was important that was cut back?

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#44

This makes me ponder the affects of a device such as Elon Musk’s Neuralink on other species. Will we be able to make animals smarter, not just humans?

This is usually called "uplift" in science fiction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uplift_(science_fiction)

Obligatory video of a Chimpanzee playing in VR. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yD4KQGZUs4

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#45
post #37

From the tagline: A recent study suggests they’ve got the voice but not the brains. As pointed out early in the article, I had always read it was the other way around; their brains are advanced enough for rudimentary speech, but they lacked the vocal "hardware" that humans developed over time. The fact that they can learn to sign and show true understanding of a non-verbal language seems to contradict the article's g…

The article says that apes can't talk because of limitations in the part of the brain that controls the muscles of the mouth. Their ability to sign shows they do have the mental capacity to learn to communicate but with their hands. This may not extend to speech specifically for the reasons discussed in the article.

[deleted]

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#46
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans aren't divided into races.

Of course we do: car races, bike races, but also human races yes. You may be confusing race and (sub)species .

> You may be confusing race and (sub)species

There is a stigma with the word race and in many places (i.e. Europe) we learn that there is only one Human race, and only one Human species, as opposed to several "ethnic groups". Although the difference between race and ethnic group is vague. I've always wondered if it was just a taboo or not.

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#47
post #43
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be tall task and full time work for a full group. I am a single person with an unrelated day job. That said, here's a few: Panchgavya project, coordinated by the Indian Institute of Technology in Delhi, internally approved 34 proposals for research into panchgavya ... to make cow urine capsules http://unnat.iitd.ac.in/index.php/Pages/display/news/urine_c... https://thewire.in/the-sciences/cow-urine-distill…

Panchgavya has a patent from the previous regime. IIT Delhi is not a collection of extremist morons. I would much rather take somebody betting their career on something than the random opinion on the Internet. Ayurveda has been an established practice for a long time. Somebody needs to bet their career on disproving it or else I will continue benefiting from it. I don’t know why you bring up Jio Institute here. I don…

> Panchgavya has a patent from the previous regime

Patent on what ? Let me leave this for you from the same article

"Vardhan, who was a member of Parliament from the Bharatiya Janata Party then, is now minister of science and technology. But in the years after the conference, the subject received no interest from the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance, which was in power till 2014. This changed when the BJP-led National Democratic Alliance came to power that year. And in November last year, Minister of State for Ayush Shripad Yesso Naik announced in the Lok Sabha that the government intended to undertake research and academic activities to promote the use of cow urine, especially its “anti-cancer and anti-infective” properties."

No IITD aren't morons but they sure no which way the wind blows and what research topics are favorite and which projects will have funds allocated at another projects expense.

Missed nothing from the quote you pasted. I agree with it.

Re Jio Institute, that's an example of an endorsement from the topmost level possible to an university that exists on paper.

If my examples dont convince you that those are mis-allocation of funds, continuing further is moot.

In case you have a change of tastes, just a reminder mine has vitamins and hormones too. Even the PM would be most cordially welcome.

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#48
post #47
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Panchgavya has a patent from the previous regime. IIT Delhi is not a collection of extremist morons. I would much rather take somebody betting their career on something than the random opinion on the Internet. Ayurveda has been an established practice for a long time. Somebody needs to bet their career on disproving it or else I will continue benefiting from it. I don’t know why you bring up Jio Institute here. I don…

> Panchgavya has a patent from the previous regime Patent on what ? Let me leave this for you from the same article "Vardhan, who was a member of Parliament from the Bharatiya Janata Party then, is now minister of science and technology. But in the years after the conference, the subject received no interest from the Congress-led United Progressive Alliance, which was in power till 2014. This changed when the BJP-led…

> In case you have a change of tastes, just a reminder mine has vitamins and hormones too. Even the PM would be most cordially welcomed to it.

Hahahaha, not so easy. Get a bunch of people excited about your urine and come up with some results. I will be all over it, why not?

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#49
post #29

I read this book not long ago: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Next-Kin-Conversations-Chimpanzees-... And in it the author (who spent decades working with and teaching chimps) concludes that chimps have the intelligence to talk but not the vocal chords. They can understand humans talking (in the same way that a dog can understand verbal commands) but they cannot do much besides grunt or hoot back. However when you change th…

That kind of work was very poor methodologically and its results are best explained as the Clever Hans effect, as the animals generating random strings unconnected to a current context, or simply as over-zealous efforts to assign meaning to the animals' signing, by their handlers.

See for example this article regarding the work of Francine Patterson with Koko:

On the Evidence for Linguistic Abilities in Signing Apes

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0093934X79...

From which I quote (since it's Elsevier-walled):

>> One of the major problems with Patterson's study is that it presents very little data. While several large corpora of the utterances of children have been published (e.g. Bloom, 1973), there is as yet no corpus of any ape's signing behavior. That is, Patterson fails to provide a substantial number of transcribed utterances. Rather, she relies upon individual examples to support her interpretations. In the absence of a corpus of utterances, however, these examples are impossible to interpret. One cannot determine whether they have the functions wich Patterson attributes to them, or whether they resulted from the ape acting as a "random sign generator" which happened to emit sequences that could be selectively chosen to illustrate particular points. This sampling problem vitiates Patterson's claim that certain combinations demonstrated that Koko possessed the ability to creatively combine signs into novel utterances. Those who assert that apes have shown linguistic abilities have invariably relied upon examples such as Washoe's signing water bird for duck. In the absence of a large corpus, however, these examples are subject to multiple interpretations. Patterson's claim that cookie rock was a creative description of a stale sweet roll loses much of its force if Koko also produced utterances such as cookie tickle, cookie hat, and toothbrush cookie in similar contexts. The largest corpus of utterances from any signing ape, that of Terrace, Pettito and Bever (1967a,b) shows that their subject, a chimpanzee named Nim Chimpsky, did in fact combine each vocabulary sign with a large number of other signs. Although each of the resulting combinations could be interpreted metaphorically, a simpler interpretation is that he merely combined signs randomly. The correct interpretation depends on other information--an accounting of the frequencies with which signs occurred in combination with one another, the contexts in which combinations occurred, the content of the teachers' signing--which Patterson fails to provide. Without this information, the importance of her examples cannot be ascertained.

>> Patterson's discussion of her cookie rock example provides some measure of this problem. She states, "Although Koko has produced uninterpretable strings (as do some children), most of her utterances are appropriate to the situation and some are strikingly apt" (p. 88). She then cites some "interpretable" examples, including cookie rock; the "uninterpretable" strings are not described. It is the case that only "interpretable" sequences are ever documented in the reports on ape signing. Only by presenting an unedited corpus of responses, however, could Patterson's assertion be validated.

Note also that one of the two authors in the quoted paper is Laura A. Pettito, one of the researchers that worked with Nim Chimpsky.

Re: Why Can’t Apes Talk?

#50

From the tagline: A recent study suggests they’ve got the voice but not the brains. As pointed out early in the article, I had always read it was the other way around; their brains are advanced enough for rudimentary speech, but they lacked the vocal "hardware" that humans developed over time. The fact that they can learn to sign and show true understanding of a non-verbal language seems to contradict the article's g…

The experiments on teaching sign language to chimpanzees actually suggests the opposite, because it shows that, even if you take the physical inability issue off the table, the chimpanzees do not make much use of their language skills - they do not enter into extended conversations with their handlers or one another. The evidence that they 'truly' (perhaps we should ask 'how deeply') understand language is controversial, especially given the recent evidence as to the extent that computer programs can give the superficial impression of having more understanding than a more thorough study of their abilities reveals.

It is sometimes argued that we do not know enough about their motivations to make that call, but it is hard to imagine there being no situations in which they would find language useful, and even harder to imagine not being able to devise experimental situations in which a greater use of language would be the only way to achieve goals they manifestly desire. Ultimately, the argument about different motives is one about different mental capabilities, anyway.

Personally, I think it probable that species other than Homo Sapiens made good use of language, but we seem to be the only one around at the moment.

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