Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web • Hacker News Board

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#101

Post by st26 » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 3:10 AM UTC

dcposch wrote: post #44

tannhaeuser wrote: post #35

I'm all for decentralized apps, but before venturing into that kind of complexity, how about getting back control over the Web? It was created as decentralized net (if not in the blockchain sense) and is the work of an entire generation.

That's what this is about. Current web tech is inherently centralizing. Say you want to create an experience like Instagram or Twitter, delivered via HTTP. You have to pay for bandwidth, CDNs, storage, app servers, DB servers, etc etc. At scale, it's millions a month. So only corporations can do it, and with a few exceptions (eg Craigslist, Stack Exchange) they end up monetizing and "growth hacking" in user hostile w…

You have to pay for bandwidth, CDNs, storage, app servers, DB servers, etc etc.

Decentralized serving has just as much bandwidth, storage, and iron (if not more). Does it somehow make those resources cheaper?

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#102

Post by PinkMilkshake » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 3:21 AM UTC

antpls wrote: post #39

When we think about decentralization, we sometime think about uncontrolled extreme decentralization. That's the ideal : no single point of failure, with everyone hosting their data where they want, and deciding who access what about them. Practically, as pointed in the article, there are laws to comply with and those are IMHO the biggest lock to decentralization. The fair middle ground between extreme centralization…

> What we need is a framework, or a backbone, that allows people to easily create new federated-native apps ("dapps") without thinking about consensus issues, protocols versioning, and with native laws compliance.

I agree that this is probably the way forward. The only downside is how your identity is tied to the service provider you choose. It was a PITA when Lavabit went down and I lost that email address.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#103

Post by zmw » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 3:32 AM UTC

pfraze wrote: post #89

zmw wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the list. > You can generate domains freely using pubkeys and without coordinating with other devices, therefore enabling the browser to generate new sites at-will and to fork existing sites. Not entirely sure what you mean, - We can generates HTTP sites at will (all you need is an IP address); - We have existing protocols for mirroring sites (not implemented universally, but nor is dat://); - When you tal…

> We can generates HTTP sites at will (all you need is an IP address); That's not really so easy from a consumer device with a dynamic IP. > - When you talk about pubkeys with coordination, there are obvious problems like the last paragraph of my original comment, right? Again, I'm probably misinterpreting what you're saying. You do need to manage keys and pair devices, yeah. > My takeaway is it's simply a higher-lev…

> Decentralization is a second-order effect.

I see, I was looking at it backwards.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#104

Post by tomcam » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 3:39 AM UTC

kickscondor wrote: post #36

styfle wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain what you can use beaker browser for, even without adoption?

Yeah, so in my case, I wrote a blogging thing that runs in Beaker. I can run it from any of my machines and it has no server. This is great because it is insanely portable - I can setup the software on a new machine by just going to the URL. It is just "software as a service" but there is no server. It's somewhat similar to TiddlyWiki but Beaker adds automatic synchronization. (I still manage the JS code itself in gi…

If you visit kickscondor.com be sure to turn down volume first. You may find out as I did that if you visit at night its bleeps and bloops can wake up a partner :O

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#105

Post by user111233 » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 3:47 AM UTC

antpls wrote: post #39

When we think about decentralization, we sometime think about uncontrolled extreme decentralization. That's the ideal : no single point of failure, with everyone hosting their data where they want, and deciding who access what about them. Practically, as pointed in the article, there are laws to comply with and those are IMHO the biggest lock to decentralization. The fair middle ground between extreme centralization…

>What we need is a framework, or a backbone, that allows people to easily create new federated-native apps ("dapps") without thinking about consensus issues, protocols versioning, and with native laws compliance.

This is really needed. There are endless great tools for centralized apps that make it trivial. I could build a usable forum website in rails in a day. I have no idea how to do that in a decentralized and secure way.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#106

Post by zmw » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 3:48 AM UTC

kickscondor wrote: post #99

newnewpdro wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I correct in undesrtanding no consideration is being made for server-executed code? How is access control implemented? It seems like this basically only applies to web content you want to give everyone access to and can have 100% of application logic run client-side. That's a pretty narrow cross-section of the existing web...

So - there is no server-executed code - it all runs in the browser and the folder can only access itself anyway, which can't happen unless you have the private key. Access control in Beaker is through that private key - you need it in order to edit the 'dat' (name for a synced folder). So, no, there aren't a lot of complex permissions available - but you can also separate an app into several dats and use a master one…

Umm, having everyone’s data as a flat directory as opposed to an aggregated database sounds terribly inefficient... You need to somehow build a distributed, decentralized database on top of that flat structure, right? Otherwise your Twitter is just a microblog publishing tool plus a direct crawl RSS reader...

Maybe Twitter is too specialized an example. What about any kind of search? You do need an index, and someone still has to own that index, and “donate” computing power to update that index. You own your self-hosted data, like many of us already do, but there will still be gatekeepers, e.g. Google for our current web.

EDIT: I realized that with a clever enough architecture and probably much more computing power than necessary in a trusted environment, no one needs to own the index. But it seems way more advanced than this protocol. (I’m completely new to this stuff so please excuse my naive skepticism.)

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#107

Post by rspeer » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 4:08 AM UTC

gsich wrote: post #47

aesthesia wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Desktop sales were already declining 7 years ago. A lot of people just don't care to have a desktop PC any more, and when their old computers finally break or stop working, will replace them with laptops or tablets, which can't do the sorts of always-on distributed things that we might hope.

I would count Laptop to the PC category. Same year span - have a Laptop/PC from 2012 and you are good to go.

But the key difference remains: there aren't many personal computers that we leave plugged in and turned on 24/7 anymore.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#108

Post by pankajdoharey » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 4:09 AM UTC

GW150914 wrote: post #68

godzillabrennus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quantum entanglement seems poised to provide real-time interstellar communication.

Quantum entanglement seems poised to provide real-time interstellar communication. That makes for good science fiction, because Quantum Mechanics is so poorly understood by most people, but it’s in no way possible or implied by the theory. Any entangled channel of communication would appear to be random noise without a Classical channel of communication, which effectively limits entanglement to light speed. The first…

I think the best way forward would be Satellite based Internet where people can tune their dish antennas to the sky and get Internet. That would be Interruption free and decentralised. I have very low faith on Bitcoin mining operations to be repurposed for decentralised Internet, though in theory they have the compute nodes no body is free from the Internet service providers. A decentralised network based on existing network can never be totally free or decentralised.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#109

Post by briatx » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 4:19 AM UTC

Repeat after me: The Internet is already decentralized. The web is already decentralized.

Blockchains do not have a monopoly on decentralization. People who assert this are trying to redefine the term to mean some kind of extreme P2P model that fits their narrative.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#110

Post by pankajdoharey » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 4:22 AM UTC

Hasnt half of the decentralisation problem been already solved by the Tor network which is encrypted and already decentralised? And they still regularly identify and stop tor servers. What makes them so sure that the decentralised nodes on a bitcoin network cannot be physically identified and stopped ? A truly decentralised network cannot be built on borrowed network. A truly decentralised interruption free, government free Internet would probably be built on a satellite based network not this.