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Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

theguardian.com

81–90 of 218 posts

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#81
post #44

I'm all for decentralized apps, but before venturing into that kind of complexity, how about getting back control over the Web? It was created as decentralized net (if not in the blockchain sense) and is the work of an entire generation.

That's what this is about. Current web tech is inherently centralizing. Say you want to create an experience like Instagram or Twitter, delivered via HTTP. You have to pay for bandwidth, CDNs, storage, app servers, DB servers, etc etc. At scale, it's millions a month. So only corporations can do it, and with a few exceptions (eg Craigslist, Stack Exchange) they end up monetizing and "growth hacking" in user hostile w…

I'm currently sketching out/prototyping a key recovery system with biometrics- https://www.notion.so/Design-Spec-fa2b4e36d1b74d56bfca7a5062...

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#82
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I checked out Beaker Browser, and apparently it's based on the Dat project [1], which seems to be very similar to IPFS. Then apparently it follows that, just like IPFS, you can't throw random things onto the network and expect it to stick; you need to pay someone for hosting and bandwidth (that someone could be yourself) to have it pinned, and in order to have it available worldwide at all times you still need to pay…

The fundamental difference is source independence. It doesn't matter where the data is, as long as someone has it pinned, you'll be able to access it.

That indeed is a fundamental difference. But on second thought I got confused. Source independence, content addressable are nice and all, but we don't build static websites that always have same hashes; "Ubuntu Server 18.04.1 ISO" could be ipfs://, but even "latest Ubuntu Server 18.04.x ISO" couldn't be that. You still need to query the origin server (or client, whatever you call it), the central authority, to get those addresses. So, frequently changing websites/webapps don't benefit from this; they may even be penalized by the overhead. Only aggressively cacheable objects could benefit, but the vast majority of those probably won't be popular enough to be cached/pinned by peers anyway, so you still end up getting whatever you need from the origin server (or paid CDNs).

Btw, I skimmed through Beaker docs, and it seems they resolve names through DNS (what else can they do) and even use HTTP for discovery.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#83
post #55

I think the web is still so new that people will really struggle to understand a decentralized web. Even 20 years on and .com still reigns supreme as the best TLD around. I'm in tech and I'm interested in a decentralized web but I also feel that throwing the baby out with the bathwater isn't a great idea. The article says, "The decentralised web, or DWeb, could be a chance to take control of our data back from the bi…

.com still reigns supreme but the icann only recently started letting people register new TLDs, and even then only 500 a year are registered. Handshake is helping to solve this by decentralizing DNS and letting anyone register new TLDs, so in the future .com may be way less popular than it is today.

Disclosure: I founded Namebase.io which is a registrar for Handshake

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#84
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental difference is source independence. It doesn't matter where the data is, as long as someone has it pinned, you'll be able to access it.

That indeed is a fundamental difference. But on second thought I got confused. Source independence, content addressable are nice and all, but we don't build static websites that always have same hashes; "Ubuntu Server 18.04.1 ISO" could be ipfs:// , but even "latest Ubuntu Server 18.04.x ISO" couldn't be that. You still need to query the origin server (or client, whatever you call it), the central authority, to get t…

I'd say that most websites are static enough to be pinned. With the others, the main problem is content determinism. If the same website renders differently on different platforms, they will have different hashes. The only reliable way to store them is in "unrendered" form. Which prevents the inclusion of external resources, something that most single-page interactive websites rely on.

Naming is a consensus problem. The key here is having the freedom of choice between trusted providers. The central source could be provided by a single cryptographic key, by many keys, m-of-n schemes or other arbitrary contracts, even in P2P form.

I'm really interested in what kind of user interfaces the Beaker people come up with when it comes to their "editable cloned websites" (forks).

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#85
post #78
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I checked out Beaker Browser, and apparently it's based on the Dat project [1], which seems to be very similar to IPFS. Then apparently it follows that, just like IPFS, you can't throw random things onto the network and expect it to stick; you need to pay someone for hosting and bandwidth (that someone could be yourself) to have it pinned, and in order to have it available worldwide at all times you still need to pay…

Some things in p2p hypermedia (dat) that's not possible with http/s: * You can generate domains freely using pubkeys and without coordinating with other devices, therefore enabling the browser to generate new sites at-will and to fork existing sites * Integrity checks & signatures within the protocol which enables multiple untrusted peers to 'host'. This also means the protocol scales horizontally to meet demand. * V…

Thanks for the list.

> You can generate domains freely using pubkeys and without coordinating with other devices, therefore enabling the browser to generate new sites at-will and to fork existing sites.

Not entirely sure what you mean,

- We can generates HTTP sites at will (all you need is an IP address);

- We have existing protocols for mirroring sites (not implemented universally, but nor is dat://);

- When you talk about pubkeys with coordination, there are obvious problems like the last paragraph of my original comment, right? Again, I'm probably misinterpreting what you're saying.

> Integrity checks & signatures within the protocol which enables multiple untrusted peers to 'host'.

Basically subresource integrity? Granted, with this protocol you can in theory retrieve objects from any peers (provided that they actually want to cache/pin your objects), not just the ones behind a revproxy/load balancer, so that's a potential win from decentralization.

> Versioned URLs

We can have that over HTTP, but usually it's not economical to host old stuff. In this case, someone still needs to pin the old stuff, no? I can see that client side snapshots could be more standardized, but we do have WARC with HTTP.

(EDIT: on second thought, it's much easier to implement on the "server"-side too.)

> Protocol methods to read site listings and the revision history

> Standard Web APIs for reading, writing, and watching the files on Websites from the browser.

You can build that on top of HTTP too.

My takeaway is it's simply a higher-level protocol than HTTP, so it's unfair to compare it to HTTP. Are there potential benefits from being decentralized? Yes. But most of what you listed comes from being designed as a higher-level protocol.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#87

"lose your password and you lose access to everything" - I'm sorry but this UX blunder just won't fly. If we are to have decentralized web we'll need services for key recovery.

Yeah, I have no clue what they were smoking when they said this.

Mitra @ the Internet Archive, when integrating DWeb ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17685682 ) and I talked about this.

I showed him a cryptographically secure method of having passwords (that keys are not derived from) that allows for password resets (without a server).

For a high-level conceptual explanation of this approach, see our 1 minute Cartoon Cryptography animated explainer series:

http://gun.js.org/explainers/data/security.html

This same method can be used for doing Shamir Secret "recover your account based on your 3 best friends" method, which I believe will be the best UX for most users.

This is an already solved problem.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#88

It strikes me that, if we are ever to expand the Internet into space on a universal scale (a la Vint Cerf and "delay tolerant networking", as an example), the inherent physics problems involved with distances and connectivity in space would probably make decentralization an absolute requirement. I mean, it seems it would not be uncommon for there to be a "local net" and a "universal peer-to-peer or mesh network net".…

> I'm not convinced that centralization in its current iteration (cloud operators controlling huge infrastructures) is the best long run

You might be interested in checking the InterPlanetary File System [1] which attempt to tackle this among other issue.

I can't find it now but I remember the doc mentioning the need for a future space network to be decentralized, so there is that too.

[1] https://ipfs.io/#why

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#89
post #85
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some things in p2p hypermedia (dat) that's not possible with http/s: * You can generate domains freely using pubkeys and without coordinating with other devices, therefore enabling the browser to generate new sites at-will and to fork existing sites * Integrity checks & signatures within the protocol which enables multiple untrusted peers to 'host'. This also means the protocol scales horizontally to meet demand. * V…

Thanks for the list. > You can generate domains freely using pubkeys and without coordinating with other devices, therefore enabling the browser to generate new sites at-will and to fork existing sites. Not entirely sure what you mean, - We can generates HTTP sites at will (all you need is an IP address); - We have existing protocols for mirroring sites (not implemented universally, but nor is dat://); - When you tal…

> We can generates HTTP sites at will (all you need is an IP address);

That's not really so easy from a consumer device with a dynamic IP.

> - When you talk about pubkeys with coordination, there are obvious problems like the last paragraph of my original comment, right? Again, I'm probably misinterpreting what you're saying.

You do need to manage keys and pair devices, yeah.

> My takeaway is it's simply a higher-level protocol than HTTP, so it's unfair to compare it to HTTP. Are there potential benefits from being decentralized? Yes. But most of what you listed comes from being designed as a higher-level protocol.

The broader concept of Beaker is to improve on the Web, and we do that by making it possible to author sites without having to setup or manage a server.

Decentralization is a second-order effect. Any apps that use dat for the user profile & data will be storing & publishing that data via the user's device. Those apps will also be able to move some/all of their business logic clientside, because theyre just using Web APIs to read & write. Add to that the forkability of sites, and you can see why this can be decentralizing: it moves more of the Web app stack into the client-side where hopefully it'll be easier for users to control.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#90
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental difference is source independence. It doesn't matter where the data is, as long as someone has it pinned, you'll be able to access it.

That indeed is a fundamental difference. But on second thought I got confused. Source independence, content addressable are nice and all, but we don't build static websites that always have same hashes; "Ubuntu Server 18.04.1 ISO" could be ipfs:// , but even "latest Ubuntu Server 18.04.x ISO" couldn't be that. You still need to query the origin server (or client, whatever you call it), the central authority, to get t…

Just want to point out that Beaker uses dat, not ipfs, so its sites are pubkey-addressed and therefore mutable.
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