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To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

nytimes.com

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Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#71

Post by arandr0x »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #49
arandr0x wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the argument and I agree that digital books are the future, however, they are so inferior in discoverability that if my library ever moves all-digital I will replace it with one of my 10 local used bookstores. I need to browse books to find some I like and am not interested in letting algorithms or Internet echo chambers do so for me. My own library also has copies of e.g. sheet music... I agree that tho…

What method do you use to browse books? Library sorting is already basically an algorithm that seems fairly easy to set up digitally. The only obvious difference I see is a larger pool of books to draw from.

It's not the method (my method is pick a shelf and look at titles, and yes, it's doable online), it's that:

1) online there's just too much stuff. Libraries culling a ton of inventory serves the purpose of the really bad books being off the (real) shelf in relatively short order. Dig through Amazon's Kindle ebooks store to have an idea how much all-digital suffers from lack of this. As well as

2) I have developed, from years of reading, the ability to look at a shelf with the full aperture of my vision, and in that single glance, pick patterns of letters on the book spines such that I can identify interesting titles at a rate of maybe 200 books per minute. I understand non-readers and people who buy books off of somebody else's review list don't have that ability, but I don't see why I should be deprived of something that literally saves me 30 minutes a week to cater to, well, people who don't actually like books.

3) Some of the best books I have read at used bookstores and librairies simply don't have a digital form. They're locally published books from decades past that probably sold in the 1000 to 10000 copies range. Newer books in that space always have a digital edition, but there is a ton to learn from the past, and I often read because I am tired of existing within my own time/space bound, hearing about the same concerns. If I want to know what my contemporaries think, I can have a conversation. To learn how people I will never have the chance to meet think, I read books. (To learn how people I will never have the chance to meet really think, I read novels.)

Now 1) could be solved by an algorithm, but I write algorithms for a living and I don't trust them. 2) is trickier. 3) is definitely solvable but the economic incentives don't align, and I trust the markets even less than the algorithms.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#72

Post by cdoxsey »

> Libraries don’t just provide free access to books and other cultural materials, they also offer things like companionship for older adults, de facto child care for busy parents, language instruction for immigrants and welcoming public spaces for the poor, the homeless and young people.

This is a description of the proper role of the church in civil society and a public library is a poor substitute.

The church ushered in life with baptism, it educated the youth, it facilitated the building of families in marriage, and comforted the grieving in death. It extolled the virtues of the fruits of the spirit in relationships: "love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control". It sought unity in diversity ("There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."), and undermined social hierarchy ("You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great")

The church had problems, but it was an important component of civil society. Now having abandoned it, we have nothing to replace it with, and we're paying the price.

I understand that there are a lot of objections to religion here, and I fully expect this comment to be downvoted to oblivion, but purely from a sociological perspective, there was a lot lost in the relentless pursuit of secularism.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#73

Post by mxuribe »

kenneth wrote: post #63

> [Libraries provide] welcoming public spaces for the poor, the homeless and young people. And isn't this precisely why normal people don't use libraries anymore? Because they've become de facto homeless shelters with unsavory guests who frequently smell awful or use computers for watching porn. I recently visited the famous Seattle public library and was shocked by the nature of the guests.

It is unfortunate that your experience was not a positive one...but i suppose this says more about how society has failed in numerous ways that some citizens are grasping at straws, and leveraging the only available institutions for them.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#74

Post by BuildTheRobots »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #42
sampl wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, the UX of paper is still so much better than kindle. Nicer to read, no lag, easier to organize and share, nicer taking notes in margins. I bought a kindle and went back to paper.

One of the main benefits of ebooks is cost of production, surely. There is a massive cost saving (and impact on jobs etc.) but it seems the producers have managed to keep all of that benefit to themselves?

It's more than just production, let me highlight storage and transport costs too (having just moved house with tonnes of books it's very much on my mind).

There's also longevity, which ties in with search-ability. Modern paper even under the best of conditions only has a century of shelf-life, where as digital data should persist for forever. Also as it's digital we get the benefits of flowing text, searching/indexing and easily converting to new formats and even languages - and the ability to easily update these conversions as technology progresses.

Theoretically (on paper?) digital books have all the benefits in the world. As a book lover I still can't quite get on with them in all but the trashiest of uses.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#75

Post by stale2002 »

krapp wrote: post #4
housingpost wrote: post #2

I love the idea of libraries, but where I live most of them are almost as bad as public transportation. People fighting, being loud, people on drugs asking for money, so it's difficult to get comfortable to sit and read. Sadly you have to go to the suburbs to get a quiet library where you don't get hassled. Amazon certainly isn't the solution, but neither is having libraries be the daytime homeless shelter.

To be fair, it's not the fault of libraries if society offers no more humane options for the homeless than to hang out there... nor is it the fault of the homeless.

It isn't necessarily their fault, but it still feels false to wax poetically about the educational and societial benefits of what is effectively a homeless shelter.

Not to say that homeless shelters aren't useful to society. Obviously they are. I just doubt that this is what library proponents were thinking about when they talk about libraries.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#76

Post by Eridrus »

ScottAS wrote: post #29

The concept of “the library” is one that holds deep emotional attachment for many people. The nostalgia of book smells, the exhibitionism of reading “cool” physical books in public, the idea of being physically connected to “the community”. The core function of a library, storing physical books, makes little sense anymore. Digital books are far superior in cost and functionality. But those emotionally attached will c…

As a child, I used the library quite often - I had no other choice, but I would often find the books I wanted to read on loan to others, and it was particularly bad if you wanted to read a series of books, inevitably one of them would be on loan to someone who had forgotten about them for months.

I was so happy when I got a job and could just go to Borders to buy the books I wanted.

And now I have a Kindle and can get books at a moments notice.

But without disposable income, the library is the only real option. But I guess these days I would have probably been more interested in my phone than books, so maybe the times really have moved on.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#77

Post by numbsafari »

cdoxsey wrote: post #72

> Libraries don’t just provide free access to books and other cultural materials, they also offer things like companionship for older adults, de facto child care for busy parents, language instruction for immigrants and welcoming public spaces for the poor, the homeless and young people. This is a description of the proper role of the church in civil society and a public library is a poor substitute. The church usher…

I always assumed this is what TED aspires to be... the Quaker / Unitarian Universalist / Reform Synagogue of North American intellectual and wealthy elites.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#78

Post by stale2002 »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #32
ScottAS wrote: post #29

The concept of “the library” is one that holds deep emotional attachment for many people. The nostalgia of book smells, the exhibitionism of reading “cool” physical books in public, the idea of being physically connected to “the community”. The core function of a library, storing physical books, makes little sense anymore. Digital books are far superior in cost and functionality. But those emotionally attached will c…

I’m unsure how you got the idea that libraries are only places to read books. Every library I’ve ever been to also provided a variety of other services: access to computers, various workshops and free classes, a place to host clubs and other community meetings, and also a workspace for students and adults. Even in the most rural libraries I’ve been to I’ve been able to grab a flyer or brochure of multiple events occu…

Sure, that stuff you mentioned is useful.

And the obvious solution to reconcile these two arguments is to still have libraries but get rid of the books! Sacrilege, I know.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#79

Post by tomjakubowski »

protomyth wrote: post #33
agumonkey wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there are tricks to limit these. Like putting libraries on the third floor without elevators.

Welcome to the wonderful world of an ADA lawsuit in the US.

welcome to the wonderful world of denying library access to the disabled, just because you hate the idea of homeless people using it

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#80

Post by j9461701 »

cdoxsey wrote: post #72

> Libraries don’t just provide free access to books and other cultural materials, they also offer things like companionship for older adults, de facto child care for busy parents, language instruction for immigrants and welcoming public spaces for the poor, the homeless and young people. This is a description of the proper role of the church in civil society and a public library is a poor substitute. The church usher…

Churches encourage complacency (all of life is God's plan), many fought hard against abortion, contraception, and women's rights/equality, and the insular tribalism such places encourage has enabled a lot of truly ugly behavior to be covered up due to in-group loyalty (see the Catholic church's sex abuse scandal for an example). Ultimately secularization was a necessary step in the evolution of society, as it's difficult if not impossible to reconcile a techno-scientific post-industrial society with simplistic parochial ideologies.

Personally, I wish I could believe in religion. I want to live in a world with a heaven and a hell and a god looking out for us, where things are logical and just and evil-doers - eventually - always suffer. I think I'd probably be a lot happier believing in that pleasant lie than I am living with the truth. But such a thing just isn't in my wiring, and I imagine many modern people share that sentiment. Hence, I suspect, all the new age woo that's basically just re-packaging Jesus in a more digestible form.

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