To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library • Hacker News Board

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#51

Post by barking » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 3:45 PM UTC

keithpeter wrote: post #6

yesenadam wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The local library where I live (Sydney suburb), when I tried reading there - after abandoning reading in parks because full of roaming people on mobile phones - was interrupted every minute by someone running out yelling I'M IN THE LIBRARY! HANG ON! into their phone. :-( They sold off/gave away all their books and music that aren't borrowed so much, i.e. most of what was good. They have about 5 books on philosophy, a…

Librarians are pretty brutal about shelf space and 'discards' are ruthless and based on readership as you noticed. In UK most public libraries will offer to get a book in on the 'inter-library loan' system - there is usually a charge. University libraries ( https://copac.jisc.ac.uk/ ) are (mostly) accessible through this system. The other strategy would be to try to increase readership of philosophy books perhaps sta…

It's years since I was in a library, the one where I lived was getting worse for a while. The stock of books was decreasing and the staff were resorting to displaying them in a manner that made this less obvious such as some books being displayed face out to take up more space. Where I live now, I'm twenty miles from the nearest, not very good library, and never go there.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#52

Post by mattkrause » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 4:00 PM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #49

arandr0x wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the argument and I agree that digital books are the future, however, they are so inferior in discoverability that if my library ever moves all-digital I will replace it with one of my 10 local used bookstores. I need to browse books to find some I like and am not interested in letting algorithms or Internet echo chambers do so for me. My own library also has copies of e.g. sheet music... I agree that tho…

What method do you use to browse books? Library sorting is already basically an algorithm that seems fairly easy to set up digitally. The only obvious difference I see is a larger pool of books to draw from.

Our local library has “displays”, somewhat like the endcaps at a book store. Sometimes they are seasonal or on a particular theme. Other times they say, “If you liked A, you might also like B, C, D, or ....” The librarians sometimes have good suggestions too.

Beyond that, I love walking through the stacks and looking to see what catches my eye. This is literally my favorite thing about working at a university. Paging through Amazons recommendations (new editions of a text book you bought in 2008, books 2 and 4 of some series, and a few best-sellers) is not even close.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#53

Post by zbentley » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 4:00 PM UTC

housingpost wrote: post #2

I love the idea of libraries, but where I live most of them are almost as bad as public transportation. People fighting, being loud, people on drugs asking for money, so it's difficult to get comfortable to sit and read. Sadly you have to go to the suburbs to get a quiet library where you don't get hassled. Amazon certainly isn't the solution, but neither is having libraries be the daytime homeless shelter.

Sometimes, in the absence of a good solution, the best thing to do is try to keep the inadequate, incomplete solutions we have intact. That might mean tolerating some annoying behavior, voting to increase funding for local libraries (if that is an option for you), etc.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#54

Post by zbentley » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #45

flyinghamster wrote: post #19

My local library has even made a tech push, not just with computers available, but also has a couple of 3D printers and offers classes on using them. Or you can bring in finished .STL files for printing, for the cost of the material used.

Is this in USA, how does state provision of such services pair with USAmerican hatred of communism? Libraries, tool-shares, hackerspaces and such seem to be the epitomy of communism.

Because a lot of the anti-communist sentiment in the US tends to be directed at communism-the-system-of-government as epitomized by several present and past countries (i.e. it's more of a nation-vs-nation dislike of communism--you can see that even in the nationalistic rhetoric the was laced through McCarthyist media).

Meanwhile, many US citizens, even conservative ones, enjoy and endorse some ideals that are communitarian or were popularized under communist societies (state-endorsed curricula, vaccination/healthcare/drug treatment, and more).

A lot of people like to decry that as hypocrisy, but I see it simply as a difference in perception/definitions of communism instead.

I find both viewpoints in myself. I think it's important to be able to pick and choose tactics and governance techniques without committing a state to a heavily ideological philosophy of order. Not that I think the US is currently doing too great a job at either of those.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#55

Post by buckminster » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 4:06 PM UTC

keithpeter wrote: post #6

yesenadam wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The local library where I live (Sydney suburb), when I tried reading there - after abandoning reading in parks because full of roaming people on mobile phones - was interrupted every minute by someone running out yelling I'M IN THE LIBRARY! HANG ON! into their phone. :-( They sold off/gave away all their books and music that aren't borrowed so much, i.e. most of what was good. They have about 5 books on philosophy, a…

Librarians are pretty brutal about shelf space and 'discards' are ruthless and based on readership as you noticed. In UK most public libraries will offer to get a book in on the 'inter-library loan' system - there is usually a charge. University libraries ( https://copac.jisc.ac.uk/ ) are (mostly) accessible through this system. The other strategy would be to try to increase readership of philosophy books perhaps sta…

In the last ten years the inter-library loan charge here has increased from £2 to £10. Second hand is often cheaper.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#56

Post by craftyguy » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

dazc wrote: post #35

krapp wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it's not the fault of libraries if society offers no more humane options for the homeless than to hang out there... nor is it the fault of the homeless.

In the UK, problems in libraries are usually not homeless people.

Care to share what the problems with libraries in the UK are then?

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#57

Post by 0xcde4c3db » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 4:18 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #45

flyinghamster wrote: post #19

My local library has even made a tech push, not just with computers available, but also has a couple of 3D printers and offers classes on using them. Or you can bring in finished .STL files for printing, for the cost of the material used.

Is this in USA, how does state provision of such services pair with USAmerican hatred of communism? Libraries, tool-shares, hackerspaces and such seem to be the epitomy of communism.

Reflexive hatred of socialism/communism has been on the way out for a while. The Cold War has been over for decades, and so there's a lot less national interest in demonizing the USSR and its policies; that stuff is now endemic to a narrower political circle. Even if that weren't the case, it arguably never really applied to local shared spaces like libraries, churches, schools, and so on. None of that stuff looks like our idea of a Soviet-style command economy to anyone except the most zealous anticommunist crusaders.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#58

Post by craftyguy » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 4:19 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #11

zanba38 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this comment. Are librarians politically aligned in the US? If so, why? Also, if you are going to downvote, you might as well spend some time explaining why.

Avoiding patrons from being tracked/potentially in the future prosecuted for their reading is professional ethics for librarians, pretty much regardless of political alignment.

I'm curious if this is still a thing. Libraries in my county have moved to a completely online system for checking out books, renewing, etc. The system regularly recommends books to me 'based on previous borrows', which indicates they are tracking/storing information about what I have borrowed in the past. The next question is, who has access to this information? My guess in the library system here does not have a strong infosec department, nor a strong legal department to resist subpoenas/police shenanigans.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#59

Post by 3rdAccount » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

philipps wrote: post #41

I can’t say enough good things about public libraries. At the MIT Media Lab we started an innovation exchange with US libraries to co-develop new STEAM education programs together (tinkering with electronics, building a “food computer”, using data to tell stories...). We found that libraries are wonderful collaborators. They are also one of the last places where people from all walks of life encounter each other in a…

Sigh...not a big fan of "STEAM" as opposed to "STEM". STEM exists because science, technology, engineering, and math don't get the focus they need in the standard US education system. There is also the arts of music, and drawing/painting/crafts, P.E., History, Literature that are still important, but take the focus away.

If you say...well STEM is important, but let's not forget art, pretty soon you'll say well we also need physical education as a healthy body is good too. Before long, you're back at the standard education system.

Getting back to the main subject at hand, libraries are awesome and will be even more important when Amazon forces the last brick and mortar bookstores out of existence. I've also started to see library outreach programs that teach classes on various subjects. Neil Gaiman has an essay on libraries in his book "a view from the cheap seats" that you can also see here:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/oct/15/neil-gaiman-fu...

As to the comment I'm responding to, you can probably mostly ignore my STEM vs STEAM argument as it is only mildly important as far as how funds are distributed. What really matters is people like you who are working to make a difference in the world and thank you for that. To think that I might get to bring my children to a library in the future that acts as a knowledge hub is pretty amazing. I've also found the librarians at my local library to be very kind & helpful people.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#60

Post by dominotw » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #45

flyinghamster wrote: post #19

My local library has even made a tech push, not just with computers available, but also has a couple of 3D printers and offers classes on using them. Or you can bring in finished .STL files for printing, for the cost of the material used.

Is this in USA, how does state provision of such services pair with USAmerican hatred of communism? Libraries, tool-shares, hackerspaces and such seem to be the epitomy of communism.

US has one of the highest spend on social services in the world/citizen.