Tesla Accounting Chief, HR Head Resign on the Same Day; Stock Plunges • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Accounting Chief, HR Head Resign on the Same Day; Stock Plunges

#301

Post by seebee » Sat, Sep 08, 2018, 6:50 PM UTC

dmode wrote: post #266

seebee wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla automotive does not have a 20% margin, it's much closer to 10%. In the '18-H letter they claimed 20% margins including ZEV/GHG credits and added back Services & Other (in all Tesla 10-Q's the Services & Other are subtracted). Tesla calculates gross margin by not only including the ZEV/GHG credits but by basing the margin on the retail price of the vehicle rather than the bulk invoice. Cost of stores and R&D exp…

Can you point to a source ? I am looking at Q2 statement and gross margin before ZEV is 20%. With ZEV it is 21%. It's on page 2 here http://ir.tesla.com/static-files/7235e525-db16-470c-8dce-9ec... Also, gross margin is literally margin after cost of goods. Doesn't include SG&A expense.

>I am looking at Q2 statement and gross margin before ZEV is 20%. With ZEV it is 21%.

The statement given is ex ZEV and stock based comp, not ex ZEV/GHG and Services/Other. ZEV/GHG accounted for ~2% of margin in the first half of 2018 while Services/Other accounted for a little over 5%. Check the 10-Qs.

> Also, gross margin is literally margin after cost of goods. Doesn't include SG&A expense.

Most OEMs use the delta between the retail price and the bulk invoice including cost of stores to calculate their margin.

Re: Tesla Accounting Chief, HR Head Resign on the Same Day; Stock Plunges

#302

Post by perl4ever » Sat, Sep 08, 2018, 6:52 PM UTC

hndamien wrote: post #289

perl4ever wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a panacea. Realistically, you can easily be rear-ended because you slowed or stopped for a traffic jam caused by something like that Tesla. It is a fantasy that people are in control of every significant danger around them.

Your stopping distance should always allow for the slamming on the brakes of the car in front. If not, you are tailgating by definition.

The scenario is that I am at a standstill because the car in front of me stopped, and am then rear-ended by someone who didn't notice traffic was stopped. Legally, the car behind me is probably responsible, but the car in front of me contributed.

Re: Tesla Accounting Chief, HR Head Resign on the Same Day; Stock Plunges

#303

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 12:00 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #287

wetKoala wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delusional. Being delusional. A person is simply delusional, if they are deceiving themselves. May as well start gangstalking myself. Hold on, let me stand outside my window with all my other selves. brb

There are lots of ways to express similar concepts in English, but in this case, I think "gaslighting yourself" expresses an incremental, progressive, or recursive concept whereas "simply delusional" is more static.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Accounting Chief, HR Head Resign on the Same Day; Stock Plunges

#304

Post by zaroth » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 2:14 AM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #300

zaroth wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fan or not, GP said there was no way Tesla could make and sell 25,000 cars a month and here they are last month selling 20,000. Would it be so shocking to see a month with 25k? GP said Ford makes the F150s with “no drama” and yet their factory is burning and their cars are catching fire — something I recall Tesla getting flack for, but Tesla never had a $140 million recall for it. I get it, different standards for di…

Give me a break. Tesla is working massive backlog of pre-orders generated by the hype associated with the company. Some people have been waiting years. There’s no world where 25,000 people a month are showing up and driving away with a car. Ford had an F-150 production stoppage due to a fire, and was able to restart production a few weeks later. They had the capital and (invisible, unsexy) team to deploy Russian heav…

> Tesla is working massive backlog of pre-orders generated by the hype associated with the company.

The Model 3 certainly smashed all records for new car reservations — 232,000 in two days, 500,000 by July 2017. (The previous record was for the 1955 Citroën DS that had 80,000 deposits during the ten days of the Paris Auto Show) [Says Wikipedia]

But these are by no means pre-orders. Refundable $1,000 deposits, of which about 25% have actually been refunded to date, it’s not so much of a hook when you can click a button to refund it, and the car costs $50k+

> There’s no world where 25,000 people a month are showing up and driving away with a car.

Do you dispute that 20,000 people showed up, paid $50,000+, and drove away with Model 3’s in August?

Do you think that number won’t be 25,000 in September?

You sound offended that Tesla has a hot product that people have lined up to buy. Yeah, they took pre-orders and people have waited years to get one. Because they want one. Because it’s like nothing else on the road today. Because, as the WSJ said, it’s a “rainbow-farting spaceship.”

This is the CEO that wanted his 3 models to spell S-E-X but couldn't because of Ford’s trademark, so he settled for “S3X”. You might not like his style, but you’re simply denying the reality of the sales numbers.

Re: Tesla Accounting Chief, HR Head Resign on the Same Day; Stock Plunges

#305

Post by sytelus » Mon, Sep 10, 2018, 1:30 PM UTC

bdcravens wrote: post #224

Nokinside wrote: post #40

If Tesla needs more money, investors will use that as a leverage to get the Elon Musk problem addressed. It would be good for everyone if there is intervention that corrects the problem and Musk could continue. Investors can demand to have someone who can veto his craziest decisions and publicity or they can force him out. Musk has structured the board so that nobody has power over him. He must know that if asks more…

Due to how the voting shares are allocated, it takes about 90% of votes outside of Musk and company insiders to oust him.

Voting structure has nothing to do with raising money. Investors have leverage over terms when company is in trouble and finding it hard to raise money. They can include terms that can limit CEO power or change his/her behavior. Typical way they might do this is by demanding board seats and taking control over hiring of CxOs. Voting structure can become more or less irrelevant when you are in desperate need to raise money.

Re: Tesla Accounting Chief, HR Head Resign on the Same Day; Stock Plunges

#306

Post by brianpgordon » Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 12:38 AM UTC

dmode wrote: post #262

brianpgordon wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you'll find many people claiming that Tesla is on the brink of bankruptcy. You'll find plenty of people saying that the stock is overvalued and they bet it will go down (possibly to zero over a longer time horizon). The point is that if Tesla wants to remain solvent then it will be forced to offer an attractive chunk of equity as part of a raise, and that will be a blow to the share price. They're out o…

Who cares if they offer equity ? Would anybody remember that 5 years from now ? I have no recollection of when they raised equity in the past.

With its unsecured 2025 bonds trading at 83 cents on the dollar and an SEC investigation ongoing, they might have to accept a lot of equity dilution on a raise big enough to keep them operating. 10% dilution in exchange for operating cash that will be promptly burned would add 10% more headwind on their earnings per share. If the market had at least to some extent believed Musk that another raise was unnecessary then that would negatively affect the share price.

Re: Tesla Accounting Chief, HR Head Resign on the Same Day; Stock Plunges

#307

Post by dmode » Thu, Sep 13, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

seebee wrote: post #301

dmode wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to a source ? I am looking at Q2 statement and gross margin before ZEV is 20%. With ZEV it is 21%. It's on page 2 here http://ir.tesla.com/static-files/7235e525-db16-470c-8dce-9ec... Also, gross margin is literally margin after cost of goods. Doesn't include SG&A expense.

>I am looking at Q2 statement and gross margin before ZEV is 20%. With ZEV it is 21%. The statement given is ex ZEV and stock based comp, not ex ZEV/GHG and Services/Other. ZEV/GHG accounted for ~2% of margin in the first half of 2018 while Services/Other accounted for a little over 5%. Check the 10-Qs. > Also, gross margin is literally margin after cost of goods. Doesn't include SG&A expense. Most OEMs use the delta…

Sorry, it took me a while to get back. Why would stock based comp be included in gross margin ? That is not part of Cost of Goods sold. That is reflected in net income.

I have no idea what your last statement means. There is US Accounting definition of what gross margin is and it is Revenue - Cost of Goods. Other expenses such as compensation, stores, are part of operational expense and it included in net income.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_margin