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YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

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Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#41
post #27

Instead of trying to solve the "problem" of YouTube showing pro-AfD content to users who are searching for information on a stabbing, how about removing asylum seekers from Germany so people don't get stabbed in the first place? Saying "we shouldn't let asylum seekers enter the country because they might be dangerous and we don't have enough information on them to assess the situation correctly" shouldn't be an "extr…

Because greatly increasing the suffering of millions of people who flee a warzone just because some of their ranks are criminals, extremists, or terrorists posing as refugees is very unfair to the vast majority of these people. People shouldn't be allowed in without vetting, but refugees need to go or be placed somewhere.

It also is not an extreme position to say that that is not my problem, that I don't care, and that I don't want to sacrifice my safety to help them.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#42
post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

I think the answer lay almost entirely with echo chambers. These exist not only in the digital world, but even increasingly in the real world as people connect to people through digital filtering.

Vegetarianism is a good example. Many, though not all, vegetarians are going to be going in that direction due to some form of objection to how animals are treated. But when you surround them with nothing but other people who hold views that are at least as far away from the mean, they're going to suddenly seem quite trite. And this pushes people ever further down one path or another.

By contrast when you have a diverse array of views, the real position of stances can be clearly seen. That is to say for one that agrees that eating meat implies inherent mistreatment of animals, vegetarians are already taking a more active stance than ~97% of Americans. The same would be approximately true for those that e.g. go for fish + veggie diets. But in a world where those 3% are surrounded by only those 3%, vegetarians are extremely 'conservative' in their views.

The whole thing is people need to surround themselves with a good number of people they disagree with on things. But this is not an easy thing to do, and so most people do not. And in fact even things like voting systems on these social media sites discourage such behavior. Many people do not downvote as a matter of something being inappropriate, they downvote because of disagreement. And that pushes views that go against the plurality's grain further and further out of site to the point that people no longer even think they exist. And of course on another site the exact view bias is instead being pushed to the top with everything else being removed out of the groupthink. It's not a very dangerous problem for a democratic nation.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#43
post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

She recently got interviewed in Ezra Klein's show to discuss the same:

https://art19.com/shows/the-ezra-klein-show/episodes/109611f...

To paraphrase one of the better soundbites in the show: YouTube is like that friend in high school who always outdoes you no matter what you do. You're vegetarian, she's vegan; you're moderate left or right, she's at the more extreme end of the political spectrum; etc.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#44
post #29

The focus of this article is on right-wing extreme content, but I think the tendency is true on both sides. The fact is that partisans are more likely to seek out news content, and partisans are happier with content that matches their prior viewpoint. And so the extreme content rises in popularity and is presented as the recommended option to the less partisan. It's a worthwhile question as to whether this is a flaw…

The extreme left aren't involved in mass murder at anything like the extent that the extreme right are. When looking at HVE groups the far left appears rarely, those lists are full of either militant Islamist or Far Right groups. The focus on the far right happens because it's the far right that are murdering people.

[flagged]

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#45
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The extreme left aren't involved in mass murder at anything like the extent that the extreme right are. When looking at HVE groups the far left appears rarely, those lists are full of either militant Islamist or Far Right groups. The focus on the far right happens because it's the far right that are murdering people.

What is HVE? What far-right groups are you referring to specifically?

Homegrown Violent Extremists

There's been numerous reporting on the surge in popularity of anti-government militia groups, tho it looks like most of it comes back to a report by Southern Law Poverty Center, which you may or may not take as a reliable source.

[1] https://www.splcenter.org/20090731/second-wave-return-militi...

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#46
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because greatly increasing the suffering of millions of people who flee a warzone just because some of their ranks are criminals, extremists, or terrorists posing as refugees is very unfair to the vast majority of these people. People shouldn't be allowed in without vetting, but refugees need to go or be placed somewhere.

It also is not an extreme position to say that that is not my problem, that I don't care, and that I don't want to sacrifice my safety to help them.

Climate change is going to make refugees everyone's problem (if it doesn't make you a refugee yourself) so I would encourage you to keep your eyes open for effective means of absorbing migrant populations.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#47
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because greatly increasing the suffering of millions of people who flee a warzone just because some of their ranks are criminals, extremists, or terrorists posing as refugees is very unfair to the vast majority of these people. People shouldn't be allowed in without vetting, but refugees need to go or be placed somewhere.

It also is not an extreme position to say that that is not my problem, that I don't care, and that I don't want to sacrifice my safety to help them.

I am the YouTube algorithm and I recommend these related comments:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17939803

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17939859

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#48
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because greatly increasing the suffering of millions of people who flee a warzone just because some of their ranks are criminals, extremists, or terrorists posing as refugees is very unfair to the vast majority of these people. People shouldn't be allowed in without vetting, but refugees need to go or be placed somewhere.

It also is not an extreme position to say that that is not my problem, that I don't care, and that I don't want to sacrifice my safety to help them.

Is it extreme to slash your tires and burn your house down? That's the immediate feeling I get when reading your words.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see the same thing on a completely uncontroversial subject: music videos. If I watch e.g. a Beatles video, the recommendations aren't [Rolling Stones, Kinks, Badfinger, ...], they're always [Beatles, Beatles, Beatles, ...]. I don't know if it's naive and bad or if it's actually good for engagement and I'm just an outlier in what I expect to get.

I only wish I would get songs by the same band... It sort of seems like Youtube tries its darndest to steer me away from the current band. I'd be happy if it just cycled between hits from the same artists, but I've never seen it do this recently. I think what's most frustrating about it is I don't know what game they're playing. Recommendations used to be logical, now they're almost a waste of screen real estate. Wha…

I've noticed the same in my usage across almost all google services at this point. My speculation is that this is due to them now being so heavily dependent on neural networks these days vs the previous mix of algorithms. The old approaches seemed to be better at not presenting false positives / creating a rediculous mish-mash of previous trains of thought in an effort to recommend something, anything... no matter how wrong.

For example: older versions of the google keyboard were pretty good about not recommending/autocorrecting non-words. So I'd type things like function/variable names (which often use camel case) and it would either suggest valid English words or perhaps a non-word used earlier in the message. These days, my use of camel case names in technical emails spills over so that emails to family now pop up with bizarre camel case recommendations. I seeing similar things happening to YouTube recommendations and elsewhere.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#50
post #29

The focus of this article is on right-wing extreme content, but I think the tendency is true on both sides. The fact is that partisans are more likely to seek out news content, and partisans are happier with content that matches their prior viewpoint. And so the extreme content rises in popularity and is presented as the recommended option to the less partisan. It's a worthwhile question as to whether this is a flaw…

The extreme left aren't involved in mass murder at anything like the extent that the extreme right are. When looking at HVE groups the far left appears rarely, those lists are full of either militant Islamist or Far Right groups. The focus on the far right happens because it's the far right that are murdering people.

Citations please
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