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Ancient farmers spared us from glaciers but changed Earth's climate: study

phys.org

31–40 of 80 posts

Re: Ancient farmers spared us from glaciers but changed Earth's climate: study

#31
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Give me a half tanker of iron, and I will give you an ice age.” - John Martin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Martin_(oceanographer)

What’s the downside to that strategy? It seems like a no-brainer at first glance

IIRC it was tested on a small scale and didn't work. Fish ate the algae before it could settle on the sea floor.

Re: Ancient farmers spared us from glaciers but changed Earth's climate: study

#33
post #12

If indeed ancient farmers (that were like 1/100 our population) already had "profoundly changed Earth's climate", so much for the "human activity couldn't be the reason for climate change today" argument...

nobody making those arguments is making them in good faith and no amount of evidence will stop them from making it.

Bad faith means not believing what you say ("with the intention of deceiving someone or doing harm").

One could very well imagine (and some of us actually know) people that legitimately believe that the climate change we're through is not man made -- they say it cause they believe it, they don't try to knowingly deceive anyone.

It's another thing to say something because you do not trust scientists (including scientific consensus) because e.g. you believe that they extrapolate from incomplete data and not enough understanding, or to prefer this or that fringe researcher to the majority opinion, and another to be in bad faith.

Re: Ancient farmers spared us from glaciers but changed Earth's climate: study

#34
post #5
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the entire planet fighting for the thermostat

This is not impossible. There are a bunch bunch of ideas for how to build a "thermostat." Some of them might be affordable for even a mid sized economy. We could find ourselves in a world where 26 different countries have competing climate control agendas and toolkits. Presumably Vanuatu has a different take that Latvia. Perhaps this will be the 22nd century's alternative to resource wars.

Vanuatu is 270k people. They can be bought off in any deal.

Re: Ancient farmers spared us from glaciers but changed Earth's climate: study

#35

Anyone fascinated by this article, I highly suggest reading Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. I just recently picked it up after seeing it recommended on a couple of threads here and it did not disappoint. Humans have been affecting ecology for a long long time. If you are like me, you're probably wondering what you can do to mitigate some of the effects, while legislation and societal action is important. I also recomme…

Sapiens seemed very pseudo-scientific to me. It seemed like Hariri had one agenda and was trying to push that desperately.

Re: Ancient farmers spared us from glaciers but changed Earth's climate: study

#36
post #28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mainly because of deforestation (one of the causes mentioned in the article). French Gaul in Roman times had already been largely deforested in the previous centuries, some historians even suggest that the process had been underway since Neolithic times, that’s about 4,000-5,000 years ago. It’s relatively unconmplicated to get rid of large swaths of forrest without having to have access to modern industrial tools, yo…

Sure, but the study places the "pivot point" much back in time in the 7,000 to 5,000 years ago range (probably give or take a thousand years): >"I noticed that methane concentrations started decreasing about 10,000 years ago and then reversed direction 5,000 years ago and I also noted that carbon dioxide also started decreasing around 10,000 years ago and then reversed direction about 7,000 years ago," says Ruddiman.…

Yeah, I had noticed that, too. To give a totally unsubstantiated opinion (i.e. mine) I'd say that that only helps make the case for the massive deforestation happening as soon as the Neolithic Revolution got under way in earnest, starting about 5,000 BCE, that would explain the rise in CO2 concentration (also see the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni%E2%80%93Trypillia_cul...). The rise in methane concentration which happened 2,000 years after that might be explained by people raising a lot more cows around 3,000 BCE (the start of "civilization" on the Nile and Euphrates, for example).

Re: Ancient farmers spared us from glaciers but changed Earth's climate: study

#37

Anyone fascinated by this article, I highly suggest reading Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. I just recently picked it up after seeing it recommended on a couple of threads here and it did not disappoint. Humans have been affecting ecology for a long long time. If you are like me, you're probably wondering what you can do to mitigate some of the effects, while legislation and societal action is important. I also recomme…

A Short History of Progress by Ronald Wright is another good one that touches on this quite a bit.

https://www.amazon.com/Short-History-Progress-Ronald-Wright/...

Re: Ancient farmers spared us from glaciers but changed Earth's climate: study

#38

Anyone fascinated by this article, I highly suggest reading Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. I just recently picked it up after seeing it recommended on a couple of threads here and it did not disappoint. Humans have been affecting ecology for a long long time. If you are like me, you're probably wondering what you can do to mitigate some of the effects, while legislation and societal action is important. I also recomme…

Instead of courses, I recommend to get a couple books on Permaculture and also look to see if any universities have extension courses for Permaculture or any topic related to it. Chances are, most of the teachers are now familiar with Permaculture and can speak to the “historical” methods and the “Permaculture” methods. Yes, a lot of people have been trying to make money of the cerificstion courses, which I think is a waste of money. I started with my backyard and have used Permaculture design to re-approach working with nature. My end goal is to have a diverse forest garden that has it’s own ecosystem. But, that’s at least 10 years of work to achieve, but well worth it. I’m almost two years into this and have zero regrets. If anyone is interested to know more, I can try to share what I’ve learned or answer any specific questions.

Re: Ancient farmers spared us from glaciers but changed Earth's climate: study

#39

Anyone fascinated by this article, I highly suggest reading Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. I just recently picked it up after seeing it recommended on a couple of threads here and it did not disappoint. Humans have been affecting ecology for a long long time. If you are like me, you're probably wondering what you can do to mitigate some of the effects, while legislation and societal action is important. I also recomme…

Sapiens seemed very pseudo-scientific to me. It seemed like Hariri had one agenda and was trying to push that desperately.

What agenda did you think he was pushing?

I think you may be confusing "agenda" with "perspective". He was pushing one perspective: his own, as all authors do. But it's our job as readers to understand the author's perspective and recognize it as such.

Neither history nor anthropology permits storytelling without a perspective. There's always a perspective. Reading for learning means understanding that perspective and determining which aspects (if any) we'll choose to adopt ourselves.

Re: Ancient farmers spared us from glaciers but changed Earth's climate: study

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Running experiments on the planet we live on is usually frowned upon. We are in a big fucking experiment right now: what happens if we release fucktons of CO2 into the atmosphere? Most of the developed world doesn't give a fuck.

Purely anacdotal of course, but most of the really bad incidents I've been involved in with production systems were actually caused by a rushed response to an initial problem that seemed serious at the time....

Nobody is pushing for a rushed response. Just some fucking common sense, and scientifically literate people. And nobody can cry 'rushed response' anyway because the effects have been known (more or less accurately) for dozens of years.
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