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Is the Lean Startup Dead?

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Re: Is the Lean Startup Dead?

#231

Post by wpietri »

owens99 wrote: post #221
wpietri wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core problem here is (lack of) consulting dollars. The Agile movement got huge in part because a lot of its proponents could make good money promoting it. E.g., the MLM scheme that is Scrum certification. Or the many consultants, some good and some bad, who made bank teaching it to people. (I did that for a while.) This was also the death of what I think of as "real Agile" because the great bulk of consul…

Hey William. I also think one of the big mistakes is that Eric trademarked Lean Startup. Check out the book, Starfish and the Spider. The way to kill a grassroots movement is to centralize the power and then it dies with the center.

Hi, Trevor!

I get that concern. But the Agile movement didn't trademark anything and came to regret it as the word got more and more watered down. All things considered, I prefer this outcome; at least the term still has meaning. If I had to pick next time, though, it would be making the trademark but building up enough of a community to carry the flame and then handing over the trademark.

Re: Is the Lean Startup Dead?

#232

Post by bborud »

owens99 wrote: post #219
bborud wrote: post #162

A movement fueled by a book promoter with no notable track record of success for what he is preaching? Yeah, it was a fad. To be fair, Ries stole a lot of nice bits from different schools of thought. There's stuff his books that actually works. But you would have to be soft in the head to think that his book represented wisdom. In fact, wisdom does not come from a book – it comes from reading a lot of books, making a…

Eric Ries was Co-Founder and CTO of IMVU which had 4 million active users and $40M in annual revenue at one point. I assume you knew that and just felt like bashing him without adding any nuance to your point. That's a bad habit and you shouldn't do it.

I'm well aware of that and, to be quite honest, it isn't particularly impressive.

But there is a piece of perspective that is perhaps missing. I've seen him preach to companies that have orders of magnitude more active users and orders of magnitude as much profit as he had revenue. And making people there believe that he somehow knows something about what it takes to make a company successful. To make a successful product.

I've seen companies who had brilliant people who built more business for their company than this guy ever built for himself be told that "why can't you be more like that". Because it is always more attractive for some types of companies to listen to some outside hack than to actually pay attention to unglamorous people with far more potential. It is easier to admire something that comes with a book, ceremonies and eloquent salesmanship. And sadly, it is easier to take what they say seriously.

I've worked on products that had an order of magnitude more users (products you might well have used) and wondered "why am I doing this again?" because at the company I was working, that wasn't really numbers indicative of a successful product.

IMVU is 23 people. It is the equivalent of a mom and pop shop in this context. I'm sure his story is compelling to someone hacking together a product in their spare time and dreaming of doing a startup. But you do need to understand that he has very little to offer to the kinds of companies this cult does real damage to.

Using the numbers you quote (they tend to vary) IMVU has an order of magnitude fewer users than MySpace. MySpace. The graveyard. That's 4 users for every copy of "The Lean Startup" book sold (well, probably fewer since I haven't kept up with his book sales).

IMVU has fewer users than people who've seen Ries talk - live or online.

IMVU is not a notable success.

He is a successful seller of self help books. No doubt about that.

Re: Is the Lean Startup Dead?

#233

Post by bborud »

sologoub wrote: post #210
bborud wrote: post #162

A movement fueled by a book promoter with no notable track record of success for what he is preaching? Yeah, it was a fad. To be fair, Ries stole a lot of nice bits from different schools of thought. There's stuff his books that actually works. But you would have to be soft in the head to think that his book represented wisdom. In fact, wisdom does not come from a book – it comes from reading a lot of books, making a…

Ries did co-found a company in 2004 and that company is still around (14 years later). It’s not a unicorn, but it’s not dead either: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/imvu Many good methodologies can develop a cult-like following, not just in tech. The “Innovator's Dilemma” was largely that for business schools and MBAs. It doesn’t mean that you cannot apply the ideas postulated, but nothing is a panacea.

I wouldn't know what role Christensen played for MBAs back when "Innovator's Dilemma" was published since I was strongly disinterested in business back then. But I don't think the two books and the two authors compare.

Having read it and having dealt with a lot of MBAs in "large businesses in areas under disruption pressure"-settings in the last decade I'm not under the impression that it is a book that had much of an effect.

Then again, the average MBA in big business isn't exactly a reader.

Re: Is the Lean Startup Dead?

#234

Post by vivekd »

salt-licker wrote: post #146

Overfunding is an existential risk for startups. Scaling a team before finding PMF seems like a blunder in most circumstances. Instead of setting your best engineers to work creating the best product, they're busy recruiting and dealing with company growing pains from the get-go. The mythical man-month and scarcity of great people combine to diminish your returns on this hiring. Furthermore, battleships don't turn on…

Combating overfunding seems difficult to do. I imagine VC type companies are ones that experience rapid uncontrolled growth. So how do you limit investors in that situation without running the risk of a future scenario where you run out of capital? Do you set up a waiting list of funders that you can take money from as you need it?

Limiting and controlling growth seems like a difficult and dangerous proposition, particularly in an environment where there are competitors just waiting to perfect the idea and take it to market before you.

Re: Is the Lean Startup Dead?

#235

Post by dang »

codesushi42 wrote: post #223
owens99 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eric Ries was Co-Founder and CTO of IMVU which had 4 million active users and $40M in annual revenue at one point. I assume you knew that and just felt like bashing him without adding any nuance to your point. That's a bad habit and you shouldn't do it.

Speak for yourself. It looks like your startup, Javelin, is built entirely on spinning the Lean Startup methodology with "All-in-one Lean Startup and Customer Development software". I assume you knew that and just felt like defending him without adding any nuance to your point. That's a bad habit and you shouldn't do it.

Personal attacks will get you banned here. Please don't do this again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Is the Lean Startup Dead?

#236

Post by JangoSteve »

edanm wrote: post #204
JangoSteve wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you both are arguing two different things. You seem to be saying that there are a lot of businesses, which will never be startups. While that's true, they seem to be saying that being a startup is not an immutable trait of a company, but rather a phase, and that any side project or solo business could enter the startup phase at any time. Sure, most people wouldn't consider a law office to be a startup. Most p…

> While that's true, they seem to be saying that being a startup is not an immutable trait of a company, but rather a phase, and that any side project or solo business could enter the startup phase at any time. I mostly agree with you, but I don't really agree with this idea. I mean, theoretically, yes, it's true - but I still think it makes sense to differentiate between a new restaurant, and someone trying to creat…

Agreed, but I don't think we're arguing that small businesses, like restaurants, want VC money and don't get it. I also don't think we're necessarily talking about the fact that small businesses don't get media attention. Instead, we're just talking about the fact that the media focuses on the companies taking VC money, while the growth-oriented, profitable startups (i.e. not restaurants) build companies with much less attention from the media.

Re: Is the Lean Startup Dead?

#237

Post by ci5er »

bborud wrote: post #233
sologoub wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ries did co-found a company in 2004 and that company is still around (14 years later). It’s not a unicorn, but it’s not dead either: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/imvu Many good methodologies can develop a cult-like following, not just in tech. The “Innovator's Dilemma” was largely that for business schools and MBAs. It doesn’t mean that you cannot apply the ideas postulated, but nothing is a panacea.

I wouldn't know what role Christensen played for MBAs back when "Innovator's Dilemma" was published since I was strongly disinterested in business back then. But I don't think the two books and the two authors compare. Having read it and having dealt with a lot of MBAs in "large businesses in areas under disruption pressure"-settings in the last decade I'm not under the impression that it is a book that had much of a…

> [...] the average MBA in big business isn't exactly a reader.

I've worked with several MBAs in big business[0]. They didn't seem illiterate. What prompts this comment/impression?

[0] FWIW - I prefer them to the average MBA in VC.

Re: Is the Lean Startup Dead?

#238

Post by firemelt »

bborud wrote: post #162

A movement fueled by a book promoter with no notable track record of success for what he is preaching? Yeah, it was a fad. To be fair, Ries stole a lot of nice bits from different schools of thought. There's stuff his books that actually works. But you would have to be soft in the head to think that his book represented wisdom. In fact, wisdom does not come from a book – it comes from reading a lot of books, making a…

Hi, I'm new in this community and startup world, when I read eric ries's books I'm in awe and planning to applying it.

But I read about your comment and reconsidering my plan

Anyway can you recommend me some alternatives behind eric ries's way to develop a startup? Thank you

Re: Is the Lean Startup Dead?

#239

Post by codesushi42 »

dang wrote: post #235
codesushi42 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speak for yourself. It looks like your startup, Javelin, is built entirely on spinning the Lean Startup methodology with "All-in-one Lean Startup and Customer Development software". I assume you knew that and just felt like defending him without adding any nuance to your point. That's a bad habit and you shouldn't do it.

Personal attacks will get you banned here. Please don't do this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

See parent. I was addressing a personal attack in that post with copypasta.

Re: Is the Lean Startup Dead?

#240

Post by Bob95120 »

salt-licker wrote: post #146

Overfunding is an existential risk for startups. Scaling a team before finding PMF seems like a blunder in most circumstances. Instead of setting your best engineers to work creating the best product, they're busy recruiting and dealing with company growing pains from the get-go. The mythical man-month and scarcity of great people combine to diminish your returns on this hiring. Furthermore, battleships don't turn on…

Good point. I actually wrote a reply to his Medium article here: https://bit.ly/2CxeT9z

His article is for 1% of entrepreneurs. For 99%, lean startups still works. And let's not act like investors spray and pray that they hit a unicorn. Of course it's good for their track record, but it's not like they don't ask questions before investing when you have the track record of Jeff Katzenberg.

There are a lot of MVPs out there to know the Netflix for mobile will work. Lean startup never said that the MVP had to be your own. Read my Medium article, I develop on the subject : https://bit.ly/2CxeT9z

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