2 gay Indians go into a strip club with an orthodox Jew...
Please don't do this here.
India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling
161–170 of 178 posts
Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling
#162Earlier quoted context omitted.
You require society's permission for every sex act you participate in? Just curious how you go about that. Do you knock on the doors of all of your neighbors so you can explain in detail your sexual plans and get their approval? Do you have them sign something or is verbal approval enough? I'm a part of society. Do I get a say in how you pursue your sex life? In that case: I completely don't approve. I'd simply prefe…
The __actual__ reality, not the theory, is that every single society that has ever existed, that we have records of, has regulated (in some form) both male and female sexuality, including sexual behavior with whom and when. (Whether there has been a lot of hypocrisy about it or not, is not relevant.)
You seem to be making the argument that you feel you should have some say about what goes on in other people's bedrooms. My only question was whether you live up to that ideal by making sure that the people around you are okay with your sex acts and the people you enjoy them with.
Are they? Have you made sure they're informed so they can judge you properly?
Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling
#163Interesting. Once Kavanaugh gets on the Supreme Court I could easily foresee the US making gay sex a criminal offense. The world is upside down.
Kavanaugh wouldn't be great for gay rights, obviously, but fortunately, even if he supported overturning Lawrence v. Texas, Roberts would be unlikely to. It's possible Trump will have another opportunity to appoint a justice to replace someone on the liberal wing, and that might mean there would be enough votes to overturn Lawrence v. Texas.
Even overturning Lawrence v. Texas wouldn't make gay sex illegal everywhere in the U.S., just in states with lingering sodomy laws.
Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling
#164Irony is that a British news outlet is posting about it when they were the ones who introduced that law in India before 157 years!! Anyway, a great step in the right direction!
I'd imagine that prohibitions against homosexuality existed in (at least) the pre-British Muslim dynasties, no?
No idea. May be.
Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling
#165Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The world is so weird. I never understood the motive behind tyrannizing other people. How is that winning at anything other than being an asshole? Well, read up on the evolution of moral systems and such. Those rules are not entirely arbitrary (even the ones coming from a religious origin, those are still manmade and follow certain rationales). The problem is that such laws don't always make sense beyond their expi…
What I am assuming is the golden rule: treat others as you would want to be treated. Don't you think the general population understands that? When people ignore it, we generally call that bad. When people don't understand that, we generally call them psychopaths. Is this really controversial? I mean, as a thought experiment, do you really not internally know that bothering other people who are bot bothering you is wr…
>What I am assuming is the golden rule: treat others as you would want to be treated. Don't you think the general population understands that? When people ignore it, we generally call that bad. When people don't understand that, we generally call them psychopaths. Is this really controversial?
No, but it doesn't settle much.
For one, it's not always about how people are treated, but also about stopping things you think are bad from happening.
If you think e.g. that forests are good, you'd want to punish people who burn them, even if they did nothing wrong to you.
Similarly, if you are an ancient citizen and think people engaging in gay sex weakens your society (e.g. because these people don't have kids and your community will have less people to continue it, and fight and protect it) you'll try to stop people from doing that.
>I personally believe that the democracy, liberty and prosperity that exists in the world today would not have been possible without America, its founders, and others who argued for this kind of liberty
And I believe that its influence has been overplayed and is insignificant (if not negative). Starting from the genocide of the native Americans, to slavery of blacks, way after Europe had put an end to it, to treatment of chinese and other immigrants up to early 20th century, to inheriting old European colonialism after WWII and extending it with neo-colonialism, to promoting puritanism, neoliberal policies, the "war on drugs", global interventions and befriending and establishing dictatorships and banana republics, promoting crappy mass culture, unhealthy food culture, and total consumerism without regard for the environment, and so on.). Plus the unbearable exceptionalism and nationalism.
Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling
#166Earlier quoted context omitted.
> In the case of gay-shaming, the obvious common cause is evolutionary: It's people trying to have more grandkids. If this were the case, we'd have 'bred out' the gay, surely? Acceptance of difference, including different sexual orientation, is higher in secular societies. Religion seems to be a much more obvious, much more common, correlation to intolerance of homosexuality -- in no small part because the most popul…
> If this were the case, we'd have 'bred out' the gay, surely? This assumes that there is a gene that determines whether someone is gay or not. I was under the impression that gay and trans are an epigenetic phenomenon that occurs during early development. In the womb, a male brain develops too much along the female trajectory or female too much along the male trajectory, either due to presence of hormones that shoul…
> This assumes that there is a gene that determines whether someone is gay or not.
This was evidently parent's assumption, per the claim that gay-shaming was evolutionary.
I've taken some liberty by inverting the former and conflating the latter (evolutionary / genetics) but my point is that there's no evidence for (and quite a bit against) the claim that any of this is 'evolutionary'.
Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling
#167As a gay Indian this is a great news! but it is one thing to decriminalize it legally and complete different thing for societal acceptance and leading a normal life as gay person in India. For an average gay person in India this doesn’t change much. There is still a long way to go. This law was never a problem for me but my family and relative and neighbors are. But it is a good progress.
For an average gay person in India this doesn’t change much.
What it changes is that if someone who doesn't like you finds out you are gay, they can no longer turn you over to the authorities. This is actually pretty significant and allows gays to breath easier about the fact that they exist.
This fact means that over time the gay community can gradually work at being more open. If you take it gradually, it is likely to be easier for people to accept.
People need time to change. If you are realistic about that, things tend to work more smoothly.
Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling
#168As a gay Indian this is a great news! but it is one thing to decriminalize it legally and complete different thing for societal acceptance and leading a normal life as gay person in India. For an average gay person in India this doesn’t change much. There is still a long way to go. This law was never a problem for me but my family and relative and neighbors are. But it is a good progress.
For an average gay person in India this doesn’t change much. What it changes is that if someone who doesn't like you finds out you are gay, they can no longer turn you over to the authorities. This is actually pretty significant and allows gays to breath easier about the fact that they exist. This fact means that over time the gay community can gradually work at being more open. If you take it gradually, it is likely…
This might not be an improvement.
If they can no longer turn you over to the authorities, they may feel compelled to gather a mob. A large part of the reason why we have criminal law is to suppress people's urge to take things into their own hands. When the legal system is unsatisfying, people turn to more instinctive methods of dealing with things.
At least the authorities were unlikely to torture you to death.
Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling
#169Earlier quoted context omitted.
For an average gay person in India this doesn’t change much. What it changes is that if someone who doesn't like you finds out you are gay, they can no longer turn you over to the authorities. This is actually pretty significant and allows gays to breath easier about the fact that they exist. This fact means that over time the gay community can gradually work at being more open. If you take it gradually, it is likely…
This might not be an improvement. If they can no longer turn you over to the authorities, they may feel compelled to gather a mob. A large part of the reason why we have criminal law is to suppress people's urge to take things into their own hands. When the legal system is unsatisfying, people turn to more instinctive methods of dealing with things. At least the authorities were unlikely to torture you to death.
Sometimes, there is value in it being obvious that the people attacking you are in the wrong.
It may be a tragedy for that individual, but sometimes it helps the rest of society go WTF? and give more push back. Kind of like when that girl was brutally raped and murdered in Turkey and the men rose up and posted pictures of themselves on social media in mini skirts to protest the idea that a girl in a mini skirt was "asking for it."
Sometimes, when the people attacking you and ruining you are too polite and proper in how they shit all over you, it's harder to fight than if they are clearly brutal and horrible in their mistreatment of you.
Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling
#170Earlier quoted context omitted.
For an average gay person in India this doesn’t change much. What it changes is that if someone who doesn't like you finds out you are gay, they can no longer turn you over to the authorities. This is actually pretty significant and allows gays to breath easier about the fact that they exist. This fact means that over time the gay community can gradually work at being more open. If you take it gradually, it is likely…
This might not be an improvement. If they can no longer turn you over to the authorities, they may feel compelled to gather a mob. A large part of the reason why we have criminal law is to suppress people's urge to take things into their own hands. When the legal system is unsatisfying, people turn to more instinctive methods of dealing with things. At least the authorities were unlikely to torture you to death.
> A large part of the reason why we have criminal law is to suppress people's urge to take things into their own hands
Well, yes, but largely by criminalizing taking things into your own hands (and enforcing that prohibition), whether or not those things are cognizable as crimes.
If your notional government is unable to constrain lynch mobs, and you are hated, then you are going to be subject to them whether or not the conduct which motivates antipathy toward you is legally cognizable as a crime, so you don't actually benefit from it being criminalized.
Before the US managed to get lynching under control, the fact that targets were charged with crimes (or actually detained in jail waiting trial for them) did not stop then from being lynched, often with the cooperation of public authorities.