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India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling

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Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling

#151

Post by sonnyblarney »

foldr wrote: post #131
sonnyblarney wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Homosexuality is generally only disturbing to people who have been taught that it's supposed to be disturbing." I believe it's much deeper than that, it's evolutionary. Some codified 'teachings' i.e. religious or otherwise may push our instincts in one way or another. FYI there would have been ancient religions very much in favour of 'same sex' though probably not same sex marriage. I suggest that a little more than…

Just about every objectionable 'ism' and 'ary' has been given an alleged evolutionary justification at some point since the publication of The Origin of Species . Could you possibly refrain from speculating along these lines unless you have actual evidence that there is an evolutionary basis for laws that criminalize gay sex? Because otherwise, even if this isn't your intention, you're giving people who favor this ki…

"Could you possibly refrain from speculating along these lines unless you have actual evidence that there is an evolutionary basis for laws that criminalize gay sex?"

I'm not remotely justifying laws that criminalizing anything.

Moreover, evolution and social evolution are very grey subjects wherein we have a great deal of difficulty proving things one way or another.

I don't think it's offensive, or even 'a stretch' to suggest that attitudes towards some kinds of behaviour are evolutionarily derived, at least partly. It's just an opinion, and maybe it's not super perfect position ... but it's not unreasonable or objectively offensive either.

And for the record, I'm glad that they've changed this law.

Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling

#152

Post by foldr »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #151
foldr wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just about every objectionable 'ism' and 'ary' has been given an alleged evolutionary justification at some point since the publication of The Origin of Species . Could you possibly refrain from speculating along these lines unless you have actual evidence that there is an evolutionary basis for laws that criminalize gay sex? Because otherwise, even if this isn't your intention, you're giving people who favor this ki…

"Could you possibly refrain from speculating along these lines unless you have actual evidence that there is an evolutionary basis for laws that criminalize gay sex?" I'm not remotely justifying laws that criminalizing anything. Moreover, evolution and social evolution are very grey subjects wherein we have a great deal of difficulty proving things one way or another. I don't think it's offensive, or even 'a stretch'…

>Moreover, evolution and social evolution are very grey subjects wherein we have a great deal of difficulty proving things one way or another.

Yes! Exactly. So it is pointless and unhelpful to speculate about whether or not people find gay sex inherently repulsive for evolutionary reasons.

I think maybe you're having difficulty seeing this because you're not (I'm guessing) a member of one of the affected groups. Imagine that I made comments offering an "evolutionary" explanation for why people find tech nerds inherently sexually repulsive -- without, of course, providing any actual science to back it up. Wouldn't that be pretty close to just trolling?

Whatever your intentions, these kinds of speculations only serve to normalize anti-gay prejudices by providing a "natural" or "scientific" explanation for them. Unless you really have done some kind of scientific investigation of anti-gay prejudice, it would be best not to introduce these kinds of speculations into the discussion.

Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling

#153

Post by sizzle »

tallanvor wrote: post #121
axilmar wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homosexuality is disturbing to people because their brain cannot find relevant patterns that have to do with homosexuality-related experiences (sights, images etc). And when the brain doesn't find good pattern matches, it alerts the person of something very strange and potentially dangerous going on. Morality systems come on top of this fundamental fact, because morality systems are just the conscious justifications…

Homosexuality is generally only disturbing to people who have been taught that it's supposed to be disturbing. Just looking at same-sex marriage allows you to clearly see correlations in approval of same-sex marriage based on religious beliefs: http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/views-abou... Beyond the differences between a number of the religions, You can look at the results for "Sources of guidance…

Great explanation, a sort of innate Bayesian inference for the uncanny valley of attributes that a person associates to being a normal human being (much like themselves).

This filter applies to trans people as well as people with full face tattoos or piercings. Great discussion, thanks.

Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling

#154

Post by chasing »

patrickg_zill wrote: post #130
ashleyn wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consenting adults' rights on anything shouldn't be a matter of debate. It's none of the debater's business.

It's a societal issue.

You require society's permission for every sex act you participate in? Just curious how you go about that.

Do you knock on the doors of all of your neighbors so you can explain in detail your sexual plans and get their approval? Do you have them sign something or is verbal approval enough?

I'm a part of society. Do I get a say in how you pursue your sex life? In that case: I completely don't approve. I'd simply prefer if you never had sex. Because it's just my belief. And if you don't support my belief, you're intolerant.

Anyway. Sounds cumbersome for what should simply be a private act between two consenting adults.

Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling

#156

Post by worldexplorer »

sgift wrote: post #82
voltooid wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more history to this. The introduction of the law relating to making gay sex illegal "... dating back to 1861, (that was) introduced during the British rule of India (modelled on the Buggery Act of 1533) criminalised sexual activities "against the order of nature", including homosexual activities" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_377_of_the_Indian_Pena... It is the truth for a lot of countries that were…

> Colonial powers left their mark behind in so many unfortunate ways that are just too complex for countries to deal with even today. What does that even mean? They are free countries. No one forced India to hold onto that law. No one forces other countries to hold onto colonial era laws. If they don't change it that's their choice, their decision and their problem in the end. Not that of some long gone boogeyman.

Making a country free doesn't make it immediately free from thoughts and misconceptions that come with a colonial rule. You will still find Indians who assume every white person they see is rich, smart and attractive. For example: YouTube India is full of people viewing 'Foreigner reactions' on Indian content. Inferiority complex among Indians is sometimes surprising.

Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling

#157

Post by EForEndeavour »

DonHopkins wrote: post #143
sonnyblarney wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Homosexuality is generally only disturbing to people who have been taught that it's supposed to be disturbing." I believe it's much deeper than that, it's evolutionary. Some codified 'teachings' i.e. religious or otherwise may push our instincts in one way or another. FYI there would have been ancient religions very much in favour of 'same sex' though probably not same sex marriage. I suggest that a little more than…

>I suggest that a little more than 1/2 of men are repulsed by the notion of gay sex (totally different for women though) and that it's instinctive. So men evolve, but women don't, huh? Just because your own personal experience propositioning men for gay sex instinctively repulses 50% of them doesn't mean your anecdotal suggestion means anything about the rest of humanity. Maybe you just need to take a shower.

Not to assume too much about the commenter you replied to, but it's fairly common knowledge that women are more sexually fluid than men (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_fluidity#Males_versus_f...). I read "different for women" to mean "women are less repulsed by the notion of gay sex than men," which is borne out by evidence.

Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling

#158

Post by patrickg_zill »

chasing wrote: post #154
patrickg_zill wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a societal issue.

You require society's permission for every sex act you participate in? Just curious how you go about that. Do you knock on the doors of all of your neighbors so you can explain in detail your sexual plans and get their approval? Do you have them sign something or is verbal approval enough? I'm a part of society. Do I get a say in how you pursue your sex life? In that case: I completely don't approve. I'd simply prefe…

The __actual__ reality, not the theory, is that every single society that has ever existed, that we have records of, has regulated (in some form) both male and female sexuality, including sexual behavior with whom and when.

(Whether there has been a lot of hypocrisy about it or not, is not relevant.)

Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling

#159

Post by wtmt »

This is a big deal, though it might seem like nothing has changed on the ground (as one commenter here has put it). It may take longer for society to accept it, depending on the city/town/village, but there is now a strong legal basis for not being harassed by the police.

I don't see the current central government doing anything in terms of legislation on gay marriage or related aspects, but we will get there.

There's a long way to go to ensure that LGBTQIA people are also treated as humans, but it was also long overdue to get such a landmark judgment, and by no less than a constitutional bench!

Re: India court legalises gay sex in landmark ruling

#160

Post by DonHopkins »

EForEndeavour wrote: post #157
DonHopkins wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I suggest that a little more than 1/2 of men are repulsed by the notion of gay sex (totally different for women though) and that it's instinctive. So men evolve, but women don't, huh? Just because your own personal experience propositioning men for gay sex instinctively repulses 50% of them doesn't mean your anecdotal suggestion means anything about the rest of humanity. Maybe you just need to take a shower.

Not to assume too much about the commenter you replied to, but it's fairly common knowledge that women are more sexually fluid than men ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_fluidity#Males_versus_f... ). I read "different for women" to mean "women are less repulsed by the notion of gay sex than men," which is borne out by evidence.

He's making this sweeping generalization about evolution by conveniently disregarding half of the population. Sounds like he's pre-disposed to believe his own conclusions that he thinks scientifically justify his own repulsive feelings, and wants to disregard the half of the evidence that contradicts his theory.
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