What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails • Hacker News Board

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#31

Post by gaius » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 1:54 PM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #17

gaius wrote: post #12

Back in the ‘90’s we used to say the e in email is for “evidence”

Back in the day, I spent many days skimming email printouts, produced in discovery, and organizing them for review. Defendants were obligated to produce everything relevant, but not necessarily in any order. So basically, they'd dump everything out, mix well, and then pack in boxes. Or at least, that's how it seemed to some of us.

If you send files to a law firm they will print them anyway and bill you an exorbitant amount, like £1/page. So that that was them saying fuck you to the lawyers!

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#32

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 1:59 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#33

Post by astura » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 2:09 PM UTC

UweSchmidt wrote: post #11

jedberg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it's still a group invasion of privacy. You shouldn't expect any privacy regarding anything you do at or for work (other than using the restroom). The email and chat servers are theirs, and they have every right to read the emails. Good companies will at least tell you when they're reading your email, but legally they don't even have to do that.

A very concerning attitude, to assume people have no rights at a workplace. Ironically and disappointingly this attitude seems prevalent among Americans.

I don't think you can quite equate "monitoring of company email usage" with "no rights at a workplace;" also "stating a fact" is not the same as "assuming," it's not even the same as "advocating for" or "liking."

I doubt there exists a company anywhere that's not monitoring email at least for spam and viruses.

There's certain times where it's not only acceptable but actually required to "violate employee's privacy" by searching their personal possessions - think airline employees, prison employees, etc.

Most companies will have some sort of auditing software on their critical servers to detect (and report) both unauthorized access but also unauthorized activity. I seriously doubt this is illegal in Europe. It's very difficult to take serious the position "my boss shouldn't know I logged into the production server and downloaded the whole database because 'I have privacy.'"

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#34

Post by rapnie » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 2:15 PM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #15

raxxorrax wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on where you are. In my country it is still a privacy violation and therefore illegal to look into mails of employees, even if private use is completely disallowed. That is now relevant in the whole EU for example and it is a very sensible rule. Maybe I am the conservative here, but I wouldn't expect my provider and mail provider to look into my private communication. Even if it is 100% their infrastructure.…

An email provider is providing you infrastructure in exchange for cash expecting them to violate your privacy because they can would be like expecting bic by virtue of selling you a pen claiming the right to read your diary. Note that Microsoft actually DID violate user privacy by reading hosted emails when they thought it would help them catch a leaker. Institutionally they have never had a history of ethical behavi…

> Note that Microsoft actually DID violate user privacy by reading hosted emails when they thought it would help them catch a leaker.

So does Yahoo/Verizon/Oath (recent HN thread) for commercial reasons (data-harvesting, targeting, ads). Google did this too until 2016, apparently. Note: automated, so probably not literally reading in person..

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#35

Post by toomuchtodo » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 2:55 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #7

everdev wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I asked Mirovic about privacy concerns, he said that KeenCorp does not collect, store, or report any information at the individual level. According to KeenCorp, all messages are “stripped and treated so that the privacy of individual employees is fully protected.” They collect meta data, but it's still a group invasion of privacy. Also, the article reads like a sales pitch for KeenCorp.

> but it's still a group invasion of privacy. You shouldn't expect any privacy regarding anything you do at or for work (other than using the restroom). The email and chat servers are theirs, and they have every right to read the emails. Good companies will at least tell you when they're reading your email, but legally they don't even have to do that.

Which is why you should have your own out of band Slack team or other group comms outside of corporate control.

Don't say in email what you should say over the phone. Don't say over the phone what you should say in person.

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#36

Post by astura » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 2:57 PM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #15

raxxorrax wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on where you are. In my country it is still a privacy violation and therefore illegal to look into mails of employees, even if private use is completely disallowed. That is now relevant in the whole EU for example and it is a very sensible rule. Maybe I am the conservative here, but I wouldn't expect my provider and mail provider to look into my private communication. Even if it is 100% their infrastructure.…

An email provider is providing you infrastructure in exchange for cash expecting them to violate your privacy because they can would be like expecting bic by virtue of selling you a pen claiming the right to read your diary. Note that Microsoft actually DID violate user privacy by reading hosted emails when they thought it would help them catch a leaker. Institutionally they have never had a history of ethical behavi…

>Superficially all email ought to be company business in which at least one party is acting as the agent of the company

Most employee manuals I have read actually directly state this in their company policy as an agreement of use of company email and internet.

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#37

Post by astura » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 2:59 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #35

jedberg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it's still a group invasion of privacy. You shouldn't expect any privacy regarding anything you do at or for work (other than using the restroom). The email and chat servers are theirs, and they have every right to read the emails. Good companies will at least tell you when they're reading your email, but legally they don't even have to do that.

Which is why you should have your own out of band Slack team or other group comms outside of corporate control. Don't say in email what you should say over the phone. Don't say over the phone what you should say in person.

What are you (regularly?) saying to your coworkers you wouldn't want your boss to hear?

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#38

Post by toomuchtodo » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 3:01 PM UTC

astura wrote: post #37

toomuchtodo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why you should have your own out of band Slack team or other group comms outside of corporate control. Don't say in email what you should say over the phone. Don't say over the phone what you should say in person.

What are you (regularly?) saying to your coworkers you wouldn't want your boss to hear?

In some cases, you're attempting to unionize [1]. Some managers are less supportive of feedback than others. Depends on their experience and emotional intelligence. Management is not your friend, just as HR is for the company's benefit, not yours.

[1] https://www.wired.com/story/labor-board-backs-startup-engine...

> Despite their futuristic sheen, tech companies “actually operate like traditional industrialists and will go through old fashioned methods of suppressing workers,” he says.

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#39

Post by philwelch » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 3:49 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #12

Back in the ‘90’s we used to say the e in email is for “evidence”

There’s a saying: “write every email as if it will one day be read aloud in court”.

Today, I think a good correlary might be, “write every email as if it will be released to the public by Russian hackers, with random excerpts screencapped and highlighted and tweeted out of context by trolls”. Though maybe if you’re just working on a presidential campaign.

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#40

Post by erikpukinskis » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

sgift wrote: post #9

jedberg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it's still a group invasion of privacy. You shouldn't expect any privacy regarding anything you do at or for work (other than using the restroom). The email and chat servers are theirs, and they have every right to read the emails. Good companies will at least tell you when they're reading your email, but legally they don't even have to do that.

Luckily, this is not the case in Germany. Here such behavior is illegal. We have experience what happens when you give people unrestricted access to data to do with whatever they want. Spoiler: It leads to bad outcomes.

Wait, so if I own a steel company and I fire a salesperson, I can’t go into the emails they sent from the computer I purchased for them to do negotiations with, to retrieve information about clients?

If that’s so, I’m quite shocked. How does this play out in courts? Does an employer in Germany have to sue an employee in order to access such information?