What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails • Hacker News Board

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#11

Post by UweSchmidt » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 8:46 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #7

everdev wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I asked Mirovic about privacy concerns, he said that KeenCorp does not collect, store, or report any information at the individual level. According to KeenCorp, all messages are “stripped and treated so that the privacy of individual employees is fully protected.” They collect meta data, but it's still a group invasion of privacy. Also, the article reads like a sales pitch for KeenCorp.

> but it's still a group invasion of privacy. You shouldn't expect any privacy regarding anything you do at or for work (other than using the restroom). The email and chat servers are theirs, and they have every right to read the emails. Good companies will at least tell you when they're reading your email, but legally they don't even have to do that.

A very concerning attitude, to assume people have no rights at a workplace. Ironically and disappointingly this attitude seems prevalent among Americans.

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#12

Post by gaius » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 8:50 AM UTC

Back in the ‘90’s we used to say the e in email is for “evidence”

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#13

Post by raxxorrax » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 8:56 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #7

everdev wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I asked Mirovic about privacy concerns, he said that KeenCorp does not collect, store, or report any information at the individual level. According to KeenCorp, all messages are “stripped and treated so that the privacy of individual employees is fully protected.” They collect meta data, but it's still a group invasion of privacy. Also, the article reads like a sales pitch for KeenCorp.

> but it's still a group invasion of privacy. You shouldn't expect any privacy regarding anything you do at or for work (other than using the restroom). The email and chat servers are theirs, and they have every right to read the emails. Good companies will at least tell you when they're reading your email, but legally they don't even have to do that.

Depends on where you are. In my country it is still a privacy violation and therefore illegal to look into mails of employees, even if private use is completely disallowed.

That is now relevant in the whole EU for example and it is a very sensible rule.

Maybe I am the conservative here, but I wouldn't expect my provider and mail provider to look into my private communication. Even if it is 100% their infrastructure.

Maybe we shouldn't expect it, but having a legislative insurance certainly helps.

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#14

Post by czechdeveloper » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 9:05 AM UTC

JeanMarcS wrote: post #8

hellweaver666 wrote: post #6

I work for a big firm. Very little of our personal communication happens over email these days. They would have to analyse chat logs instead to really understand what is going on.

If there’s not a Slack plugin yet, we can bet they’re working on it.

Owner of Slack instance can request all data, including direct messages, as far as I remember.

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#15

Post by michaelmrose » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #13

jedberg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it's still a group invasion of privacy. You shouldn't expect any privacy regarding anything you do at or for work (other than using the restroom). The email and chat servers are theirs, and they have every right to read the emails. Good companies will at least tell you when they're reading your email, but legally they don't even have to do that.

Depends on where you are. In my country it is still a privacy violation and therefore illegal to look into mails of employees, even if private use is completely disallowed. That is now relevant in the whole EU for example and it is a very sensible rule. Maybe I am the conservative here, but I wouldn't expect my provider and mail provider to look into my private communication. Even if it is 100% their infrastructure.…

An email provider is providing you infrastructure in exchange for cash expecting them to violate your privacy because they can would be like expecting bic by virtue of selling you a pen claiming the right to read your diary.

Note that Microsoft actually DID violate user privacy by reading hosted emails when they thought it would help them catch a leaker. Institutionally they have never had a history of ethical behaviour regardless of how much their founder now gives to charity.

An employer provided email is another matter. Superficially all email ought to be company business in which at least one party is acting as the agent of the company. In reality personal matters are probably frequently intermingled even between two employees of the org providing the email. What's public and what's private becomes complicated.

If there is a dispute do you ask both parties to voluntarily turn over emails? In a dispute between a party inside and outside of the org do you make do on what you can get voluntarily turned over?

Do you merely make do without such evidence? Does one go to court and request such if needed from your own org? If that is the standard how does one enforce proper disclosure when there is no adversarial situation?

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#16

Post by dingaling » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

Luc wrote: post #10

jedberg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it's still a group invasion of privacy. You shouldn't expect any privacy regarding anything you do at or for work (other than using the restroom). The email and chat servers are theirs, and they have every right to read the emails. Good companies will at least tell you when they're reading your email, but legally they don't even have to do that.

I'm surprised things would be that clear cut even in the USA. Though it's certainly a very American thing for employees to argue that corporations having power over them is the right and proper order of things.

I worked for a UK subsidiary of a US company. Right on the login screen was notification that all use and communication was subject to monitoring.

Why would it be otherwise?

You are paid to do the company's business with the equipment they provide. It's not a matter of 'power'.

Imagine a UPS driver taking the van to run errands for his friends. Few people would argue that it is inappropriate for UPS to track the van and fuel usage. Maybe he scrawls anti-management missives and keeps them in the glovebox. Why is IT different?

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#17

Post by mirimir » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 9:19 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #12

Back in the ‘90’s we used to say the e in email is for “evidence”

Back in the day, I spent many days skimming email printouts, produced in discovery, and organizing them for review. Defendants were obligated to produce everything relevant, but not necessarily in any order. So basically, they'd dump everything out, mix well, and then pack in boxes. Or at least, that's how it seemed to some of us.

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#18

Post by jacknews » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 9:51 AM UTC

"In an ideal world, employees would be honest with their bosses,"

Haha, this is a nice bit of rhetoric judo. I think the bigger issue is usually bosses being honest with employees.

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#19

Post by dsr_ » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 10:19 AM UTC

UweSchmidt wrote: post #11

jedberg wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it's still a group invasion of privacy. You shouldn't expect any privacy regarding anything you do at or for work (other than using the restroom). The email and chat servers are theirs, and they have every right to read the emails. Good companies will at least tell you when they're reading your email, but legally they don't even have to do that.

A very concerning attitude, to assume people have no rights at a workplace. Ironically and disappointingly this attitude seems prevalent among Americans.

That's because Americans have significantly fewer rights at a workplace than, say, Europeans. It's not an assumption, or an advocacy, but a recognition.

Re: What Your Boss Could Learn by Reading the Whole Company’s Emails

#20

Post by annabellish » Wed, Sep 05, 2018, 10:39 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #7

everdev wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I asked Mirovic about privacy concerns, he said that KeenCorp does not collect, store, or report any information at the individual level. According to KeenCorp, all messages are “stripped and treated so that the privacy of individual employees is fully protected.” They collect meta data, but it's still a group invasion of privacy. Also, the article reads like a sales pitch for KeenCorp.

> but it's still a group invasion of privacy. You shouldn't expect any privacy regarding anything you do at or for work (other than using the restroom). The email and chat servers are theirs, and they have every right to read the emails. Good companies will at least tell you when they're reading your email, but legally they don't even have to do that.

This attitude that the workplace is a minor, independent kingdom for the capitalists above you, where you shouldn't expect to be treated well or with respect is a scary one indeed.

Workers are not untrustworthy beasts that need to be corralled, or at least shouldn't be, and we shouldn't accept being told that we are. _We_ are the ones who create the value, _we_ are the ones who the world could not run without.