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Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

nytimes.com

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Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#711

Post by Const-me »

mike10010100 wrote: post #710
Const-me wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Against treats to that identity. Through most of the history, the threats were imaginary, and it was conservative majority who oppressed other people. Recently however, in places like Bay Area, the conservatives are no longer a majority, and consequently the treats became quite real, see e.g. https://www.scribd.com/document/368692388/James-Damore-Lawsu... I don’t think the right way to solve this is oppress, stamp ou…

> Against treats to that identity. What, precisely, about other minorities existing threatens that identity? You keep repeating this claim of threats, but haven't been able to articulate any. > I don’t think the right way to solve this is oppress, stamp out, or discriminate people positively or negatively. And yet that's precisely what the Google engineer linked to was doing by circulating his memo describing how he…

> haven't been able to articulate any.

See the link in the previous comment. Being fired for expressing a political viewpoint is a classic example of discrimination. Also because the subject was about work conditions, the firing was illegal in California jurisdiction.

> describing how he and others believed women weren't as "qualified" to be programmers

Apparently, you have not read that memo. He never said that (I’ve just downloaded the memo and searched), nor anything similar to that. And IMO he never meant that either.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#712

Post by mike10010100 »

Const-me wrote: post #711
mike10010100 wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Against treats to that identity. What, precisely, about other minorities existing threatens that identity? You keep repeating this claim of threats, but haven't been able to articulate any. > I don’t think the right way to solve this is oppress, stamp out, or discriminate people positively or negatively. And yet that's precisely what the Google engineer linked to was doing by circulating his memo describing how he…

> haven't been able to articulate any. See the link in the previous comment. Being fired for expressing a political viewpoint is a classic example of discrimination. Also because the subject was about work conditions, the firing was illegal in California jurisdiction. > describing how he and others believed women weren't as "qualified" to be programmers Apparently, you have not read that memo. He never said that (I’v…

> See the link in the previous comment.

That really doesn't describe a threat to the "white heterosexual Christian" identity. In fact, you're free to be a white heterosexual Christian at Google or anywhere else for that matter.

> Being fired for expressing a political viewpoint is a classic example of discrimination.

Again, the viewpoint on women and minorities was an intolerant one. Please study the Paradox of Tolerance.

> He never said that (I’ve just downloaded the memo and searched), nor anything similar to that.

You're right, he made a much more broad statement about the gender gap in the tech industry. Although there is this section:

> Openness directed towards feelings and aesthetics rather than ideas. Women generally also have a stronger interest in ​people rather than things​, relative to men (also interpreted as ​empathizing vs. systemizing​).

>○ These two differences in part explain why women relatively prefer jobs in social or ​artistic areas. More men may like coding because it requires systemizing and even within SWEs, comparatively more women work on front end, which deals with both people and aesthetics.

He's regurgitating the idea that biology, rather than society, is what is holding women back in the tech industry. This is an intolerant viewpoint, as it suggests that there is something inherent about being female that makes them inferior at participating in the tech industry.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#713

Post by repolfx »

thiht wrote: post #597
falcolas wrote: post #333

A lot of hassle could be spared if we all followed one simple rule while at work: "In polite company, it’s not proper to talk about sex, religion, or politics" No matter what you have to say on those topics, you'll step on someone's toes. There's really no good reason to talk about it at work unless you're in a brothel, church, or a capital building.

Maybe it's a US thing? In France we regularly have somewhat heated (in the sense that we obiously disagree) talks about politics, religion and so on but it remains cordial becaus, you know, we're adults... Isn't it simpler for everyone to behave like respectful adults even when you fundamentally disagree than making a blanket rule to only ever discuss non sensible subjects?

French politics is very stable. Your leaders tend to be all very similar, at least in recent years. Macron is not wildly different to Hollande etc.

Despite that, France routinely sees a lot of remarkably aggressive political activism - farmers dumping manure on roads, the incident with the fishermen pelting the boat with rocks a few days ago, huge quantities of striking and so on.

I don't think there's anything special about France that makes French people able to discuss politics in a more civilised way. If France were to see significant change in politics the discussions would stop being 'adult' very quickly. For example if you had a referendum and France voted to leave the EU, "Frexit" would rapidly turn into a much more heated topic than it is even in the UK, I bet. It's all about the stakes.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#714

Post by [deleted] »

fox404 wrote: post #700
dang wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's routine moderation and has nothing to do with which politics are being trumpeted—only with the dumbing-down effects of generic comments on the internet. The internet message board is not a medium that can handle grandiose rhetoric without breaking down. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

The internet will break down if someone makes a grandiose statement? Uh huh. We need to get you a mirror. If your bias can’t be called into question, your competency must then be. I personally do not find a reminder of what actual human oppression looks like throughout the world in a discussion on why white male re-education courses should be mandated in the workplace (and the irony certainly doesn’t escape me). Igno…

[deleted]

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#715

Post by Const-me »

mike10010100 wrote: post #712
Const-me wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> haven't been able to articulate any. See the link in the previous comment. Being fired for expressing a political viewpoint is a classic example of discrimination. Also because the subject was about work conditions, the firing was illegal in California jurisdiction. > describing how he and others believed women weren't as "qualified" to be programmers Apparently, you have not read that memo. He never said that (I’v…

> See the link in the previous comment. That really doesn't describe a threat to the "white heterosexual Christian" identity. In fact, you're free to be a white heterosexual Christian at Google or anywhere else for that matter. > Being fired for expressing a political viewpoint is a classic example of discrimination. Again, the viewpoint on women and minorities was an intolerant one. Please study the Paradox of Toler…

The quotes you’ve copy-pasted are about statistically significant gender difference in interests and preferences.

The conclusion you’ve made in this and previous comments is about abilities.

Huge difference between the two.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#716

Post by pas »

jeffmcmahan wrote: post #701
pas wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyinism is political too. Of course not directly, but even the tinyiest things can and do become political. Hand gestures, clothing, music, choice of cars, choice of food, choice of words.

How is it cynical to demonstrate that a specific claim -- put across with unreasonable certitude -- is in fact flatly false? Let me ask you: is De Morgan's theorem political? Directly? Indirectly?

Would it benefit some group more than the other? Then it has political consequences.

Logic seems fairly apolitical, but logicians rarely. Thus it's pretty reasonable to think of circumstances where simply stating a fact turns out to be political.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#717

Post by natch »

_8j50 wrote: post #213
paulcole wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If my coworker doesn’t believe I have a right to not die from a chronic illness, thinks I shouldn’t have the right to get married, or thinks less of someone because of the color of their skin, then I don’t respect them as a coworker or a human being.

You don't get. That isn't why you should respect them!! Their beliefs are not grounds to or not to respect them. Their beliefs are part of their private life. You are able to change what rights and liberties are allowed to you because you can participate in society and politics without getting fired from your jon and exiled for your unpopular beliefs.

There are unpopular beliefs, and then there are beliefs that lead to the infringement of civil and human rights. Everyone has a right to their beliefs, but even bigot snowflake racist republicans do not have a right to be free from consequences for their beliefs. One such consequence is they are not as likely to earn the respect of respectable people.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#718

Post by natch »

sosense wrote: post #292
gameswithgo wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That this is downvoted here is really a depressing thing. Does hackernews actually represent the average, highly educated tech professional? If so we are in for a very bad time.

Keep politics out of the workplace. Just because you support the things listed, it doesn't mean everyone has to hear about it and succumb to your outspoken politics. Go out on the street, go home, go anywhere else and be political. At work, just shut up and work.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing.”

Politics does come into work with things like family leave policy, hiring, promotions, corporate giving, corporate mission, etc.

It’s inescapable. Even denying it doesn’t make it go away.

Feel free to take your own advice and shut up yourself, but it’s up to other people to decide for themselves what they will speak up about, knowing the price they may pay for, in some cases, confronting whatever they are up against.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#719

Post by natch »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #436
sosense wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep politics out of the workplace. Just because you support the things listed, it doesn't mean everyone has to hear about it and succumb to your outspoken politics. Go out on the street, go home, go anywhere else and be political. At work, just shut up and work.

Well, here's the deal. The employer gets to decide, since it is their company. Before I retired, there were a lot of things I didn't like about work. I thought management regularly made bad decisions, in a number of different areas. But if you are an employee, you go along with what management wants, or you move along.

That’s only half of the deal. The employer can’t take the employees for granted any more than the employees can take the job for granted. So the other half of the deal is that the employee had better be offering a worthwhile opportunity. Employee turnover is not cost-free. Yeah, it doesn’t have to be perfect. But it is a two way street.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#720

Post by _Tev »

mike10010100 wrote: post #710
Const-me wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Against treats to that identity. Through most of the history, the threats were imaginary, and it was conservative majority who oppressed other people. Recently however, in places like Bay Area, the conservatives are no longer a majority, and consequently the treats became quite real, see e.g. https://www.scribd.com/document/368692388/James-Damore-Lawsu... I don’t think the right way to solve this is oppress, stamp ou…

> Against treats to that identity. What, precisely, about other minorities existing threatens that identity? You keep repeating this claim of threats, but haven't been able to articulate any. > I don’t think the right way to solve this is oppress, stamp out, or discriminate people positively or negatively. And yet that's precisely what the Google engineer linked to was doing by circulating his memo describing how he…

> And yet that's precisely what the Google engineer linked to was doing by circulating his memo describing how he and others believed women weren't as "qualified" to be programmers based solely on their biology. Hence, why he was fired.

After all discussions on the HN on the topic you still hold this view? When you paint the dissenting view in the worst possible light (and imagine a few things just to be sure), you will be seen as the oppresor.

Hence the identity threat to the conservatives.

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