Convincing engineers to join your team • Hacker News Board

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#141

Post by mmt » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 6:09 AM UTC

danenania wrote: post #54

dx87 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've yet to find an employer that would give me more PTO instead of a pay raise. They'd rather pay an extra 10k between a pay raise and corresponding 401k matching increase, but they won't even consider giving me 5 extra vacation days so I'll have the time to enjoy stuff with the money I already have.

As a founder who is soon to start competing in the hiring market, I probably shouldn't be saying this, but there seems to be a huge arbitrage opportunity here available to smart startups. Innovating on tired working practices (that most founders themselves would not enjoy in the least) offers an avenue to out-compete large companies for engineers while paying less cash and making your employees happier, more effectiv…

> equity is now viewed dubiously by many

This could be merely viewing it with the correct amount of doubt, as the trend has been toward less information asymmetry between founders/employers and candidates/employees.

The small size of employee option pools (which then get diluted) doesn't help, either. I can't remember where/when I read it, but I believe YC is pushing to change that.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#142

Post by tormeh » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 6:22 AM UTC

wolco wrote: post #113

jonny_eh wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a Brad Pitt, are you? Is there even such a thing in engineering?

There are tons of engineering rockstars (brad pitt types). Pick your favourite framework there are usually a handful of stars around it. Am I Brad Pitt? I'm not in that league. But you don't have to be to avoid the unpaid nonsense of hanging around all day. If that's the hiring process it shows that the company is unsure of themselves and are afraid to make a mistake. Companies like google are so big they need this k…

Why? Hiring is the single most important thing a company does. It makes sense to invest resources in it. Every company that doesn't is gambling that every candidate that can get through a short interview is about equal.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#143

Post by mmt » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 6:26 AM UTC

muzani wrote: post #132

throwaway9412 wrote: post #4

Hear that everyone? "As a startup it's hard to compete with Facebook and Google compensation packages, especially for senior engineers" Also, Oracle apparently had a lot of success building out their bare metal (now cloud infrastructure) team by making uncharacteristically (for them) good offers. You can hire good people, if you're willing to pay them. Bullshit doesn't work anymore.

The paragraph right after that explains how startups can get ahead. I work with a lot of startups just for the learning opportunity and career progression. Even with the high probability of startup deaths, you can hit real manager experience, at the age of 30 and move on to manager jobs with big corporations.

That particular one, "career progression" only seems to apply to those who consider it a progression to move into management. That seems to be a minority opinion among engineers, but, more importantly, there are far fewer management roles than engineering ones, especially at a startup.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#144

Post by torgian » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 8:43 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #58

wycy wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's not necessarily one day off work, it's one day off work for every potential job.

But that's only a downside for people who might fail your interview and/or be looking for alternative employment. Why would you care about inconveniencing some disloyal guy who you don't want to hire? ;)

Pfft. Loyalty is overrated. The company will fire you without a care in the world even if you are the most loyal person out there

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#145

Post by jakobegger » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 8:55 AM UTC

Very valuable advise!

When I hired my first employees, I focussed too much on compensation. I ran the numbers and offered as much as I could afford.

I was really disappointed when great candidates declined my offers, and went with other companies that didn't even pay more (I asked).

Now I understand that I just failed to excite them. You really need to tell people how awesome the work is, good engineers will always have many options. And also understand that what excites you may not be what excites the candidate, so starting with asking about what the candidate is looking for is a really good idea.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#146

Post by wyclif » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 9:52 AM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #65

wolco wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they don't that's why they want reassurance full day interviews. First step stop applying and let them come to you directly or get recommended. Do you consider yourself the Brad Pit of enginners or joe blow? Do you think Brad Pitt goes into the cattle call auditions and waits all day for his 5 minute read?

I'm not a Brad Pitt, are you? Is there even such a thing in engineering?

There is: Rob Pike, Jeff Dean, or John Carmack are examples. And I know that no matter how good I get, I'll still be a long way away from the level those guys have reached.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#147

Post by muzani » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 10:46 AM UTC

mmt wrote: post #143

muzani wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paragraph right after that explains how startups can get ahead. I work with a lot of startups just for the learning opportunity and career progression. Even with the high probability of startup deaths, you can hit real manager experience, at the age of 30 and move on to manager jobs with big corporations.

That particular one, "career progression" only seems to apply to those who consider it a progression to move into management. That seems to be a minority opinion among engineers, but, more importantly, there are far fewer management roles than engineering ones, especially at a startup.

I was going to say that there's career progression towards being a 10x programmer too. But that's a much more debatable topic.

You get more flexibility to take on multiple roles. More pressure driving you forward. Much, much less bureaucracy to worry about. No more 2 month discussions over code that takes 2 weeks to write.

The downside is that you could get tied up putting out fires, being unfocused. And there's little room for deliberate training.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#148

Post by lukebaker » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 12:42 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #118

Broken record, but here's our hiring process: 1. An initial call, handled by a principal ("founder"), with the objective of explaining the role and the company and arming the candidate with as much detail about the hiring process as is practicable. 2. A followup in email shortly thereafter confirming interest and locking down schedule. 3. 1-3 work-sample challenges (our current set, for the role we're hiring now, is…

What happens prior to step #1 from a candidate's perspective? How do candidates express interest and do 100% of the folks who express interest get a call?

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#149

Post by vonmoltke » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 12:46 PM UTC

BookmarkSaver wrote: post #122

chadash wrote: post #3

During the recruiting process, I expect a company to be putting its best foot forward. If things seem disorganized at that stage, then I assume that day-to-day operations at the company are even more disorganized. Additionally, it always makes a big difference to me if people high up in the organization (even if they aren't technical) are involved in the interview process. If a founder or C-level employee spends some…

>If things seem disorganized at that stage, then I assume that day-to-day operations at the company are even more disorganized I'm not really sure about that. In my experience there can be a pretty big gap between the initial recruiters (who often understand nothing about the actual qualifications necessary) that are just trying to get as many people in the door as possible, and the actual operations of the company.…

Having recruiters that are so clueless about the jobs they are recruiting for is a significant red flag for me and an indication that the company is immature and disorganized.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#150

Post by jlelonm » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 12:54 PM UTC

mrfusion wrote: post #90

ninetax wrote: post #6

> ... the final step is presenting them an offer to join your team and convincing them to accept it. I think more effort could be made to sell before the candidate decides to interview. The best candidates have to be sold on the opportunity before they invest their time into an interview process because they have so many opportunities available. Widen the funnel at the mouth. Anecdotally I have had many experiences w…

An easy step to widen the mouth is to get rid of the web forms that make you retype your resume into your boxes. No one who isn’t desperate is going to do that.

Only desperate people apply to big companies?