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San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber and Lyft

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Re: San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber and Lyft

#221
post #194
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'd started a scooter company before scooter companies were a thing, went to any city and asked for permission, they would have said "wtf? no." (assuming they answered my petition at all) and that would have been the end of it. The only reason we're here arguing about this is companies like Bird chose to ask for forgiveness rather than permission in the past.

That is disingenuous FUD. Cities are totally willing to work with companies if they provide a net benefit. Do you think a politician is going to deny access to a company if it costs them nothing and makes their constituents happy? What they say "wtf, no?" to is companies treating public good and spaces like sidewalks as something they can just offload all of their costs onto, without ever asking permission. Look at t…

> Do you think a politician is going to deny access to a company if it costs them nothing and makes their constituents happy?

Yes. The politicians already do this all the time, every time a development company wants to turn a vacant lot or McDonald's into an apartment building even though that building meets all the codes and standards.

It turns out that politics is often times negative sum, and whatever good thing you are doing will stopped, merely because you havent given them their cut.

Re: San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber and Lyft

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What law did they break?

Use of powered vehicles on sidewalks is illegal, as is blocking entrances with vehicles. The city accused Bird and Lime of doing both.

That is a dumb law that was made when motorcycles were the only vehicles competing inside walks.

There is very little traffic on sidewalks and using it for pedestrians and scooters and bicycles is much better. Especially considering that cyclists can pause or go around pedestrians when necessary.

Having an absolute law rather than an adaptive is not useful to the community.

Re: San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber and Lyft

#224

This really comes off as spiteful and childish. Bird and Lime didn't come kiss the ring before daring to provide services to the residents of San Francisco, so they get kicked to the curb in favor of a couple of companies who's timing hadn't yet angered the City.

I just don’t understand this attitude that these companies are owed their ability to do business, particularly when it involves just dumping these things on the public sidewalks.

[deleted]

Re: San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber and Lyft

#225
post #88

SFMTA has published the detailed feedback[1] and summary ratings[2] for each petition. Although the actual applications are not published, it really looks like Bird did a poor job on paper. For example, most of the companies relied on swipe-through screens in apps to remind people to use helmets, which the SFMTA deems insufficient. I have to agree, as I have rarely seen someone on a scooter with a helmet. [1] https:/…

A car would get a big fat “poor” on every point of that evaluation. And yet, we allow our city to be totally overrun with them! I certainly hope that SFMTA is feverishly working to apply these standards to car companies. No car should be allowed to operate in San Francisco until its maker has demonstrated that they can affirmatively prevent them from blocking sidewalk ramps and until they all have programs to track a…

It's not illegal to buy your own electric bike or scooter and ride it around SF. Not like SF is banning electric bike manufacturers. So your analogy is pretty bad.

Re: San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber and Lyft

#226
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The companies in question already had a history of operating illegally in San Francisco. I don't think it's fair to dismiss that as "picking and choosing". Dumping those scooters over the city is effectively littering. Business should be able to operate freely, but they should not be able to break the law until someone catches them.

You are absolutely right. Dockless mobility uses public space for the benefit of a private corporation. I cycle to work and there is not a single day where I see an OfO bike or Grab bike parked in the most annoying places. Maybe "society" is not ready for dockless and we need to create norms and rules of behavior (i.e., enforce that with fines)

Well guess what, every time you personally park your bike outside, or even bike on the road, you are using public space for your own private benefit.

Why's that ok? You are a private individual. You are using public space for private benefit, instead of , I don't know, letting the needy homeless use it.

Re: San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber and Lyft

#227

Can we just ban cars in SF while we are at it? People drive them with a vengeance, clutter up the streets while they are in parking mode, and are a general eyesore.

So ban Uber and Lyft?

I'd prefer banning personal cars (within city limits), as those take up a massive amount of space, with regards to parking.

Taxis on the other hand, have usage rates of ~50 percent. Whereas personal cars, parked on the side of the road, are only being used ~5 % of the time, and the other 95% is wasted.

Re: San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber and Lyft

#228
One reason it might make sense to have a service like this provided by just a two or three companies in a given city instead of a large number is verification and enforcement of safety regulations such as requirements that the companies keep the scooters well maintained.

Two ways come to mind for a city to verify that a company is handling such things properly.

First, the city can have auditors regularly examine the internal operations of the company, talk to employees, and review consumer feedback.

Second, the city can pull a random sample of the company's scooters off the street and have city mechanics inspect them.

The number of scooters you have to examine from a company to determine if it is meeting maintenance requirements depends on the margin of error that you are willing to accept, not on the number of scooters in that company's fleet. Let's say you need to examine 50 scooters to get the desired margin of error.

Suppose are going to allow 5000 scooters in your city. If you do that with two companies, 2500 each, and you audit annually, you'll be doing each year two audits of the facilities and employees, and checking 100 scooters (50 from each company).

If instead you have that same 5000 scooters, but now provided by 10 companies, you'll be doing 10 facility and employee audits, and checking 500 scooters.

So same number of scooters on the street in both cases, but about 5 times the administrative costs to the city in the 10 company case is in the 2 company case.

Also, if consumers need a different app for each scooter company, a smaller number of companies will probably serve consumers better. Again, take a city with 5000 total scooters. If those were supplied be two companies, evenly split, then a consumer would only need two apps to have complete coverage. A consumer with only one of the apps would still have a decent change of being able to find a scooter in a reasonable time frame.

If that 5000 were split among 10 companies, a consumer with only one app would only have a pool of 500 scooters available. If those ended up spread out around the city it would be hard for a one app consumer to find a nearby scooter. If that company concentrated in one smaller area that could solve that problem...but then the consumer would probably end up needing the apps of several others, too, to find scooters when they are in other parts of the city.

There is going to be some optimum number of scooter companies for a given city and total fleet size which balances things. Lower numbers are more convenient and usable by consumers, and cost less to regulate and verify, but higher numbers have more competition which might lower prices.

My guess...and it is just a guess...is that three would be about right for most reasonably large cities.

Re: San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber and Lyft

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're phrasing it as if it's "revenge" rather than the city looking out for its citizen's best interests. If this company has been willing to flaunt the rules, who's to say it won't again? That isn't "revenge," it seems more like using common sense.

s/flaunt/flout

Thank you, but alas, two hours have passed.

I should also say, look below[0]. Bird's application was terrible . Scoot on the other hand set an example for a great application to a government body for a resource of some kind, I can compare it to my experience for writing grants.

I can imagine some class on professional writing contrasting these very two applications as examples of what not to do and what to do when applying for something from a government. After scanning both, I'm pretty much convinced the city chose the applications based on the quality and substance behind each application, not based on anything else.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17882982

Re: San Francisco Denies Scooter Permits for Bird, Lime, Uber and Lyft

#230
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is disingenuous FUD. Cities are totally willing to work with companies if they provide a net benefit. Do you think a politician is going to deny access to a company if it costs them nothing and makes their constituents happy? What they say "wtf, no?" to is companies treating public good and spaces like sidewalks as something they can just offload all of their costs onto, without ever asking permission. Look at t…

> Do you think a politician is going to deny access to a company if it costs them nothing and makes their constituents happy? Yes. The politicians already do this all the time, every time a development company wants to turn a vacant lot or McDonald's into an apartment building even though that building meets all the codes and standards. It turns out that politics is often times negative sum, and whatever good thing y…

You're missing the "and their constituents want it" part. That empty lot and McDonald's might meet all the standards, but if your voting base is too NIMBY, you're not going to allow them. These organizations using public resources as storage space are both creating a cost for communities and thus their politicians, _and_ the citizens of many citizens are turning against them because of all the externalities they are generating.

When you meet an asshole you've met an asshole. When you meet assholes all day, you're probably the asshole. These dockless companies are complaining about everyone's reaction to them, which is making me think they might just be assholes

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