Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#121

Post by Alex3917 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:50 PM UTC

themgt wrote: post #113

40acres wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point and I'm glad you brought this up. Like I mentioned, America has many gaping wounds which I believe can be traced back to institutional racism. When talking about the prevalence of black kids raised under single family homes we have to take into account why these kids may be raised that way. Is it a character flaw of black families? I don't think so. I'm black and familial ties run DEEP in almost every fam…

This article/issue is about non-white applicants (Asian Americans) who are being discriminated against in the admissions process. And not just at Harvard but other elite schools, med schools, etc. It's bizarre how many comments here are focusing on traditional white vs. black issues when this is entirely about a non-white group who is being discriminated against under affirmative action because their superior test sc…

> Asian incarceration rates are also lower than that of whites, another fact difficult to explain through the prism of institutional white supremacy.

It was almost impossible for Asians to come to the U.S. before 1965. Wait another couple hundred years and check back on whether there is a reversion to the mean.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#122

Post by SOLAR_FIELDS » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:51 PM UTC

creaghpatr wrote: post #42

aaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about not discriminating at all ?

Personally, I'd love to see Harvard set aside 75% of their spots for a lottery of students who meet an insanely high threshold (98% percentile in the SAT, for example, or some other objective measurement), and then use the other 25% for athletes, legacies, diversity, etc. That way you may not get in, but you know you won't get cut because you got assigned an arbitrary 'personality' score if you scored high enough; en…

Yes but then you invite the idea that the “meritocracy” is biased because only rich kids have the opportunity to study and achieve the top 2 percentile scores needed for admittance. This argument has been used against Texas schools, specifically A&M and UT, who currently work with a “Top 10%” rule where the top 10% of any class in state is automatically admitted to any state school.

Note that I am not expressing any opinion about any of this, merely pointing out the counter argument.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#123

Post by sctb » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:54 PM UTC

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #30

castlecrasher2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand the ACLU's statement. Is Harvard's discrimination against Asian-Americans for their race not racial discrimination to the ACLU? Or is it OK because it benefits worse-off races? I'm open to alternatives, I'm not trying to establish a false dichotomy here.

Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, culture, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people. Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.

Please stop repeating this everywhere in the thread.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#124

Post by tr0ut » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:55 PM UTC

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #50

A lot of commenters here are demonstrating that they do not understand the difference between racism and racial discrimination. Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, culture, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.) Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up fo…

Since you posted this exact statement a dozen times. Could you answer, What exactly is the benefit for white people to be racist to black and brown people?

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#125

Post by thereare5lights » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

> We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school extracurriculars, both academic and non-academic to prepare them for college.

That doesn't change the economic conditions of the student's home life.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#126

Post by 40acres » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

waterhouse wrote: post #117

40acres wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think solving the funding issue would directly solve the performance issue because this is a problem with multiple variables like you have mentioned. When we talk about stable 2 parent households we need to consider the fact that many black and Hispanic families are torn apart due to the higher incarceration rates for black and Hispanics when compared to whites, even for doing the same crime. When you split a…

> When we talk about stable 2 parent households we need to consider the fact that many black and Hispanic families are torn apart Given that these things are happening, do you think it's good for colleges to accept less-prepared students whom life or people have mistreated over better-prepared students whom life has treated well? (Because that seems to be the position of affirmative action advocates.)

I think we should bypass the solution of Affirmative Action and really work on the fundamental issues of America which lead to solutions like Affirmative Action. In my ideal world AA would not exist because it would not be necessary. So by principle you can call me anti-Affirmative Action.

I do think however it would be interesting for elite colleges to allocate a percentage of freshman / graduate admissions to "experiment" on bringing in students who may fall outside the criteria they use to evaluate most candidates. I think you could learn a lot from that kind of experimentation.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#127

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:56 PM UTC

zacharytelschow wrote: post #104

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

So your solution to past injustices is systemetized injustices in the other direction?

That isn't unheard-of. Tort law, for instance, has something of that flavor. You might respond that we're talking about different time periods. However, that ignores present reality. Right now, minorities face systematized injustice in numerous important ways.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#128

Post by univalent » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:57 PM UTC

I think the problem lies with SATs/GREs/GMATs. The tests (especially SAT, GRE) are ludicrously simple. I'm your run of the mill IIT-an and placed 98th and 99th percentile without breaking a sweat in the GRE when it came time for grad school. I think I maxed 2 of the 3 sections and was 98th percentile in both. What's the point of a test like that? Thousands of people max/get to the highest percentile and it becomes useless as a variable. Why not follow the model of the JEE exam instead of the SAT (a different variant of the exam for each specialization). If the exam is harder, the distribution of students is more spread out. You can rank them nationwide. Not being a jerk, I'm honestly curious why people like middle school math problems in a grad school exam? https://jeemain.nic.in/webinfo/Public/Home.aspx

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#129

Post by seatdrummer » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

aaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #22

creaghpatr wrote: post #5

Notably, the comments section of the article is overwhelmingly in favor of schools not discriminating based on the color of the applicant's skin.

How about not discriminating at all ?

Its just the discriminate is a loaded word now, but it just means to differentiate, which is perfectly ok to do.

Like by IQ, achievements, attitude, etc.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#130

Post by camjohnson26 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:59 PM UTC

malcolmgreaves wrote: post #65

jaisfj wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Racism is: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"

Incorrect: you're probably grabbing the Webster dictionary definition. Which is made by white people. Your go to citing is an example of racsim: control the definitions to make everything better for white poeple (and make it seem like white people can be affected by racsim hah!). This is probably the first time you've heard this fact: racism is systematic, instutionalized, collective, cultural, social oppression of p…

It's true that there's a difference between discrimination and racism. Racism is under the surface and hard to quantify, but it's a real thing that affects people. Discrimination is more obvious and in your face.