Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#21

Post by gizmo686 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

The other problem is that affirmative action (as currently practiced), is a very blunt instrument to mitigate the problems you describe. If your concern is fairness to people from underfunded schools, then discrimanate in favor of students from such schools. Currently, colleges do the opposite, since they use their historicall records to favor students that come from schools which have a history of producing students that do well at said college.

The result of that is that the bennificiaries of AA tend to be the members of the target group who least need the help, and for whom the underlying justification is least relevent.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#22

Post by aaaaaaaaaab » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

creaghpatr wrote: post #5

Notably, the comments section of the article is overwhelmingly in favor of schools not discriminating based on the color of the applicant's skin.

How about not discriminating at all?

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#23

Post by topynate » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

Setting the racial aspect to one side, is there anything of value in "admissions readers" in a gargantuan administrative bureaucracy rating young kids on their "likability"?

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#24

Post by madengr » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

Throwing money at education doesn't fix anything. Washington, DC is a fine example. The worst performing school districts with the most money spent.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#25

Post by _ptgt » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:00 PM UTC

lainga wrote: post #2

Equivalent Bloomberg article [0] mentions that the ACLU has taken Harvard's side, and they state [1]: While the DOJ’s brief does not challenge Supreme Court precedent granting universities the right to freely select their own student body—presumably because it cannot do so at this stage of the litigation—the Trump administration has advocated for “race-blind” policies, which Harvard and virtually all other universiti…

I find the ACLU's statement wholly unsatisfying. There is a tradeoff here: is unquestionable racism against Asian-Americans justifiable to increase advance African-American participation in higher education? There is also surely a legal question at play.

The ACLU, instead of addressing either matter, launches a political statement announcing its stance without justification. Lost some respect for them here.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#26

Post by tabtab » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

topynate wrote: post #23

Setting the racial aspect to one side, is there anything of value in "admissions readers" in a gargantuan administrative bureaucracy rating young kids on their "likability"?

People skills are helpful to success. I can testify to that as someone with insufficient amounts.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#27

Post by StreamBright » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:03 PM UTC

jaaron wrote: post #15

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

But there's the rub: "We would not need affirmative action if [reality was different]." Ergo, we need affirmative action. That is not to say we shouldn't also put significant effort into eradicating institutional prejudices, eliminating poverty, and investing in all communities. However, that effort will take generations and may never fully succeed, which means affirmative action, in its various forms, is necessary t…

Trying to force the outcome of something is never going to work. We need to fix the pipeline.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#28

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

dunpeal wrote: post #18

jaaron wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's the rub: "We would not need affirmative action if [reality was different]." Ergo, we need affirmative action. That is not to say we shouldn't also put significant effort into eradicating institutional prejudices, eliminating poverty, and investing in all communities. However, that effort will take generations and may never fully succeed, which means affirmative action, in its various forms, is necessary t…

> "We would not need affirmative action if [reality was different]." > Ergo, we need affirmative action. Logical fallacy. "I have a good immune system, so I would not need medicine if I got a cold." Doesn't mean I need medicine right now, when I'm not sick at all. EDIT: The example seems to be confusing people, so here's a more formal explanation: if (reality is different) then not (we need affirmative action) Does n…

[deleted]

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#29

Post by 706f6f70 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

castlecrasher2 wrote: post #4

lainga wrote: post #2

Equivalent Bloomberg article [0] mentions that the ACLU has taken Harvard's side, and they state [1]: While the DOJ’s brief does not challenge Supreme Court precedent granting universities the right to freely select their own student body—presumably because it cannot do so at this stage of the litigation—the Trump administration has advocated for “race-blind” policies, which Harvard and virtually all other universiti…

I'm not sure I understand the ACLU's statement. Is Harvard's discrimination against Asian-Americans for their race not racial discrimination to the ACLU? Or is it OK because it benefits worse-off races? I'm open to alternatives, I'm not trying to establish a false dichotomy here.

The short of it is that the ACLU consider affirmative action a form of just racism. This form of racism corrects for past transgressions, helps achieve diversity targets, and "keeps the doors open" for minorities, so they consider it not only morally justifiable, but commendable.

Their position paper on affirmative action is available here: https://www.aclu.org/other/affirmative-action-aclu-position-... and I think it illustrates not only their rationale, but the tone of their support for that philosophy.

Fair disclaimer that I am obviously opposed to this approach and have been cautiously skeptical of the ACLU for a while now.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#30

Post by malcolmgreaves » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

castlecrasher2 wrote: post #4

lainga wrote: post #2

Equivalent Bloomberg article [0] mentions that the ACLU has taken Harvard's side, and they state [1]: While the DOJ’s brief does not challenge Supreme Court precedent granting universities the right to freely select their own student body—presumably because it cannot do so at this stage of the litigation—the Trump administration has advocated for “race-blind” policies, which Harvard and virtually all other universiti…

I'm not sure I understand the ACLU's statement. Is Harvard's discrimination against Asian-Americans for their race not racial discrimination to the ACLU? Or is it OK because it benefits worse-off races? I'm open to alternatives, I'm not trying to establish a false dichotomy here.

Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, culture, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.)

Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people.

Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.