Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#31

Post by vkou » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

madengr wrote: post #24

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

Throwing money at education doesn't fix anything. Washington, DC is a fine example. The worst performing school districts with the most money spent.

Have you considered the possibility that these school districts have financial needs that are different from better districts, and that they would do even worse if there was less money spent on them?

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#32

Post by malcolmgreaves » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

706f6f70 wrote: post #29

castlecrasher2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand the ACLU's statement. Is Harvard's discrimination against Asian-Americans for their race not racial discrimination to the ACLU? Or is it OK because it benefits worse-off races? I'm open to alternatives, I'm not trying to establish a false dichotomy here.

The short of it is that the ACLU consider affirmative action a form of just racism. This form of racism corrects for past transgressions, helps achieve diversity targets, and "keeps the doors open" for minorities, so they consider it not only morally justifiable, but commendable. Their position paper on affirmative action is available here: https://www.aclu.org/other/affirmative-action-aclu-position-... and I think i…

Actually it's a form of racial discrimination that is countering racism.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#33

Post by badlucklottery » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

mantas wrote: post #19

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

While that would certainly improve education, affirmative action camp would still have plenty of talking points. More educated parents do have effect on their kids' educational ability. There's always space to one-up by those who got money. Classes can always be smaller, some schools can always have better teachers and equipment, more study-oriented students will keep concentrating in specific locations. Perfect equa…

>Perfect equality is not possible.

Of course but this is one of those "perfect is the enemy of good" situations. Right now we're doing very little and it shows in Title I schools.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#34

Post by adarsh_p » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

dunpeal wrote: post #18

jaaron wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's the rub: "We would not need affirmative action if [reality was different]." Ergo, we need affirmative action. That is not to say we shouldn't also put significant effort into eradicating institutional prejudices, eliminating poverty, and investing in all communities. However, that effort will take generations and may never fully succeed, which means affirmative action, in its various forms, is necessary t…

> "We would not need affirmative action if [reality was different]." > Ergo, we need affirmative action. Logical fallacy. "I have a good immune system, so I would not need medicine if I got a cold." Doesn't mean I need medicine right now, when I'm not sick at all. EDIT: The example seems to be confusing people, so here's a more formal explanation: if (reality is different) then not (we need affirmative action) Does n…

The inverse of your example sentence would be something like - "I don't have a good immune system, so I would need medicine if I got a cold" - which makes sense, and is analogous to "Reality is not different, so we do need affirmative action."

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#35

Post by cma » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

samangan wrote: post #20

nradov wrote: post #12

Harvard (and some other schools) used to apply similar subjective criteria to limit the number of Jewish students. Since there is no real legal definition of race, applicants who might be disadvantaged by this policy are free to select whichever answer on the "What is your race?" question they want. If the system is unfair, there's nothing immoral about gaming it.

Almost all the ivy leagues have in person interviews... Also are people supposed to fake their names?

Is Elizabeth Warren a traditional indigenous name?

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#36

Post by 40acres » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

patrickg_zill wrote: post #16

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

Are you talking about "equality of opportunity" or "equality of outcome"?

Opportunity. Affirmative Action is a band aid on one of many gaping wounds in America caused by discrimatory policies.

White flight, block busting and redlining all contribute to the current state of affairs in which Affirmative Action seems like a decent solution. The real solution however will require full scale reform. Have you ever seen video of a school board meeting where desegregation bussing was on the agenda? Parents go bezerk. But these are probably the same parents that would veto any changes to education funding that diminish the reliance on property taxes or any other reform which may affect them.

We have a huge collective action problem in America. We have been taught that this is a land of fair opportunities and if you work hard you will get yours, but that has not been the case, so any action that tips the "free market" is looked down upon without acknowledgement that there are many policies that prevent equality of opportunities because they are subtle (in the form of tax breaks for instance) and are beneficial for the dominant groups.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#37

Post by malcolmgreaves » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

mberning wrote: post #11

castlecrasher2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand the ACLU's statement. Is Harvard's discrimination against Asian-Americans for their race not racial discrimination to the ACLU? Or is it OK because it benefits worse-off races? I'm open to alternatives, I'm not trying to establish a false dichotomy here.

Yeah, that is bonkers. Let’s use some actual racism to fix some other deficiency, which we assume is the result of some previous racism.

Racsim is the systematic oppression of people. It's carried out in instutions, cultural, and processes: individual people do not perform racsim. (Individuals can discriminate.)

Racism depends on country / region. In the US, racism exits against black and brown people. It is a system set up for the benefit of white people.

Your confusion comes from falsely equating racial discrimination and racism.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#38

Post by tdb7893 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

castlecrasher2 wrote: post #4

lainga wrote: post #2

Equivalent Bloomberg article [0] mentions that the ACLU has taken Harvard's side, and they state [1]: While the DOJ’s brief does not challenge Supreme Court precedent granting universities the right to freely select their own student body—presumably because it cannot do so at this stage of the litigation—the Trump administration has advocated for “race-blind” policies, which Harvard and virtually all other universiti…

I'm not sure I understand the ACLU's statement. Is Harvard's discrimination against Asian-Americans for their race not racial discrimination to the ACLU? Or is it OK because it benefits worse-off races? I'm open to alternatives, I'm not trying to establish a false dichotomy here.

My view on it is that all ethnicities are necessarily equal (no race is smarter than any other) so large scale differences in admissions are the result of cultural and historical circumstances. By picking off most metrics you will get a "better" student body by those metrics but you are also responsible for perpetuating those biases. In addition to this philosophical reasons there is the practical reason that diversity can increase access to new ideas (and generally overall team performance) and can also make it much easier to recruit a wider set of people so it's not an absurd goal from a practical standpoint.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#39

Post by drabiega » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:06 PM UTC

madengr wrote: post #24

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

Throwing money at education doesn't fix anything. Washington, DC is a fine example. The worst performing school districts with the most money spent.

Is this true of individual schools, or only on average? I'm not particularly well versed on the subject but when I lived there my impression was that there was a mix of schools that were well-funded/performing and under-funded/performing but not a lot of crossover between those two categories?

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#40

Post by vkou » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

mberning wrote: post #11

castlecrasher2 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand the ACLU's statement. Is Harvard's discrimination against Asian-Americans for their race not racial discrimination to the ACLU? Or is it OK because it benefits worse-off races? I'm open to alternatives, I'm not trying to establish a false dichotomy here.

Yeah, that is bonkers. Let’s use some actual racism to fix some other deficiency, which we assume is the result of some previous racism.

If the deficiency is not the result of previous racism, what is it the result of?