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John Coltrane and the End of Jazz

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Re: John Coltrane and the End of Jazz

#31

Post by kop316 »

emodendroket wrote: post #22
kop316 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counter point, imagine if the Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, Tupac, Notorious BIG, etc. had an unreleased album and it was released this year. If that happened, I would guarantee that the same thing that happened with Coltrane's Album would have the same thing. Does that mean Rock, Hip-Hop, Rap is dead? I do think jazz as a genre has an issue, but it is a much different issue. Personally, I think Jazz is way to inbred,…

To the extent jazz is stodgy it's because commerical interest has dried up and it's attached itself to schools instead. But what was the alternative, you wonder? Do we want to only have Kenny G?

I don't know to be honest. When I think of contemporary Jazz Artists out there, I think of Big Bad Voodoo Daddy, Gordon Goodwin, (to an extent) Trombone Shorty. I enjoy playing and listening to Jazz, but I personally am disappointed when I go to shows and it's obvious that the soloist is there to show off how great they are at Jazz, not to be there to entertain. Granted that could be a one off thing and not really a greater issue.

Re: John Coltrane and the End of Jazz

#32

Post by byproxy »

pnathan wrote: post #9

> The fact that this 55-year-old recording is the year’s most significant jazz release tells you all you need to know about the health of jazz in 2018. Writer has a point. As much as I like jazz, it's ossified badly as a genre. Love to see some forward motion that isn't free jazz or other noise.

A lot of the guys that worked on 'To Pimp a Butterfly' are doing interesting things. E.g. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C13UQaE0ZaQ

Re: John Coltrane and the End of Jazz

#33

Post by knowsmorsecode »

throwaway8879 wrote: post #2

My obligatory Coltrane comment. I actually didn't hear any Coltrane or even jazz at least a decade into seriously learning/practicing music. My first introduction to legato-based guitar playing was Allan Holdsworth, who used to play these beautiful monstrous never-ending buttery lines with luscious and unusual chords in harmony. I spent a while imitating that style of playing. Holdsworth had put some really great ins…

Nice to find another Holdsworth fan. Secrets is an awesome album, as is A Love Supreme.

Re: John Coltrane and the End of Jazz

#34

Post by dfxm12 »

The fact that this 55-year-old recording is the year’s most significant jazz release

Is it the year's most significant jazz release this year though?

Kamasi Washington charted in the main Billboard 200, and thanks to the strength of Heaven and Earth, Washington's year old Harmony of Difference is climbing back up the ranks as well. He's selling out ~3k size venues across the country on the strength of that album, too, playing to young and old fans alike.

Re: John Coltrane and the End of Jazz

#35

Post by emodendroket »

ebikelaw wrote: post #30
emodendroket wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's no longer very commercially popular -- there is no jazz radio station in the US that isn't smooth jazz and jazz albums represent like 1% of sales. In that sense you could call it "dead," but I'm not sure commercial success is the right metric for art music.

Did you mean no commercial stations? Because I can think of lots of listener-supported jazz stations that are mainstream, definitely not smooth. KCSM in my local area, for instance.

I guess that must be it. Been a while since I read that and I know NPR stations play some jazz. There's also jazz on Sirius XM if you have it.

Re: John Coltrane and the End of Jazz

#36

Post by skybrian »

emodendroket wrote: post #20
skybrian wrote: post #12

It seems a bit weird to use the word "death" or "end" for music that's still being played by musicians and discovered by new listeners.

It's no longer very commercially popular -- there is no jazz radio station in the US that isn't smooth jazz and jazz albums represent like 1% of sales. In that sense you could call it "dead," but I'm not sure commercial success is the right metric for art music.

I think a good definition of "dead" would be that there isn't an active community of musicians that plays it anymore. (Like how a "dead language" is one where there's no community that speaks it.)

A musical genre might become traditional if there's little innovation, but that's not dead. People still enjoy playing it.

Re: John Coltrane and the End of Jazz

#37

Post by jrowley »

byproxy wrote: post #32
pnathan wrote: post #9

> The fact that this 55-year-old recording is the year’s most significant jazz release tells you all you need to know about the health of jazz in 2018. Writer has a point. As much as I like jazz, it's ossified badly as a genre. Love to see some forward motion that isn't free jazz or other noise.

A lot of the guys that worked on 'To Pimp a Butterfly' are doing interesting things. E.g. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C13UQaE0ZaQ

R+R=Now is really exciting too. Its definitely my favorite jazz super group right now. I'm going to be seeing them in SF in a couple of weeks - I can't wait. I really like this tune from their album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GS4yZHgjJw

Re: John Coltrane and the End of Jazz

#38

Post by [deleted] »

Finnucane wrote: post #11
eerwrq wrote: post #3

This guy doesn't know what he's talking about. - Jazz didn't begin to die on Kind of Blue. That was a popular, well selling jazz record. Rather than setting Jazz on a path to irrelevance, Kind of Blue reinvigorated the genre and inspired an abundance of accessible and innovative material in the years following its release. - Alice Coltrane is not the "Yoko Ono" of Jazz. She made a lot of good records. And Yoko Ono is…

> Alice Coltrane is not the "Yoko Ono" of Jazz Yeah, that was uncalled for. Journey in Satchidananda and Ptah the El Daoud are excellent albums.

[deleted]

Re: John Coltrane and the End of Jazz

#39

Post by narag »

emodendroket wrote: post #24
icebraining wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's the latter - Coltrane exhausted jazz. That's my reading, anyway.

But as I said, it isn't true. People kept right on experimenting with different forms. Coltrane was certainly an all-time great but I don't agree that he took experimentation to its limits and was playing noise nobody could possibly enjoy listening to, as the author seems to want me to believe.

The thing with experiments is that sometimes they fail. You can try endless variations but only a few will work. Coltrane and his generation were massively successful. And they innovated over Parker that had in turn innovated over previous generations. I'm no expert and I can understand that evolution and at the same time enjoy all that jazz. I can enjoy later music but there seems to be a somehow unbroken chain.

Re: John Coltrane and the End of Jazz

#40

Post by jrowley »

ebikelaw wrote: post #30
emodendroket wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's no longer very commercially popular -- there is no jazz radio station in the US that isn't smooth jazz and jazz albums represent like 1% of sales. In that sense you could call it "dead," but I'm not sure commercial success is the right metric for art music.

Did you mean no commercial stations? Because I can think of lots of listener-supported jazz stations that are mainstream, definitely not smooth. KCSM in my local area, for instance.

I was listening to KCSM all morning, such a great station.
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