Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture • Hacker News Board

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#601

Post by dang » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 4:25 PM UTC

fox404 wrote: post #555

dang wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post generic ideological comments to HN. They just lead further off topic and deep into flames. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Whoops. That you would condemn a perfectly reasonable comment like that speaks volumes about your character and the political leanings of whomever is paying for your coffee.

It's routine moderation and has nothing to do with which politics are being trumpeted—only with the dumbing-down effects of generic comments on the internet. The internet message board is not a medium that can handle grandiose rhetoric without breaking down.

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#602

Post by pluto9 » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

austinheap wrote: post #127

fatjokes wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. I completely disagree with the whole "bring your whole self to work". No! Bring your professional self to work. The counter-argument is that the causes relate to discrimination in the workforce. I.e., BLM needs to be supported because blacks are underrepresented in the American tech workforce. I disagree these need to be equivalent. It's possible for a company to promote hiring underrepresented minorities…

It's called corporate social responsibility. Companies advocate for their bottom line and their employees at the same time. As a gay dude that grew up in Ohio -- and had people yell "fag" when I got my diploma at graduation -- I'm beyond happy that the next generation of LGBTQ engineers won't grow up with the same level of hate I experienced. The arc of moral justice is only bent when force is applied.

> Companies advocate for their bottom line and their employees at the same time.

Pretty much just their bottom line. Companies advocate for whatever position makes a large majority of people think of them as the "good guys". How many companies did you see advocating for gay marriage before the political zietgeist shifted in favor of it a few years ago?

Rest assured that all these "socially conscious" corporations will have a sudden and miraculous change of heart the instant the sociopolitical winds shift on any given issue. And you will be expected to fall in line or keep your opinions to yourself.

Personally, I don't want my career success or failure to depend on my willingness to pledge fealty to whatever insincere political opinion my employer thinks is currently expedient.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#603

Post by philwelch » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 4:33 PM UTC

aluren wrote: post #170

_8j50 wrote: post #84

Worked across very liberal and very conservative places in tech. Neither is pleasant. In my opinion, the American self-image and self-worth largely characterized by subscription to a political ideology is the problem. What bothers me is not dress codes,free meals,open offices,etc... But the very idea that a company would display or promote politics in the work place. Why are companies promoting "pride",donating to tr…

I don't mean any offense, but it has been my experience that people who can afford to "put politics aside", so to speak, are people from demographics who didn't have politics "happen" to them. When you are gay or trans and a significant chunk of people find your mere existence revolting, when you are black and a significant chunk of people believe you are innately less intelligent and more prone to violence, when you…

> When you are gay or trans and a significant chunk of people find your mere existence revolting, when you are black and a significant chunk of people believe you are innately less intelligent and more prone to violence, when you are a woman and a significant chunk of people believe you have no business starting a career or working in tech or people don't believe you when you claim to have been sexually assaulted, it's hard to treat "politics" as an abstract debate where free-thinking intellectuals joust in the marketplace of ideas. In these contexts, you actually live "politics" - every day, from the moment you wake up to the moment you sleep. You can't opt out of it.

I've never seen any of these ideas openly expressed in the workplace, or for that matter, anywhere.

You know what's more dangerous than treating politics as an abstract debate? Treating it as a constant life-and-death struggle where enemies must be destroyed before they destroy you. The ideas you're talking about aren't even the ideas being expressed by anyone of importance: they're straw men arguments that propagandists falsely accuse people of perpetuating via "dog-whistles" so that you ignore and dismiss what they're actually saying.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#604

Post by loco5niner » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

throwaway_45 wrote: post #83

tptacek wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? We're all generally well-paid (even with respect to the value we create). But this whole message board is practically dedicated to the ways in which our industry pisses us off, from confiscatory IP clauses to open offices to death march projects. Who's to say labor can't organize simply for a better shop to work in? That's not unprecedented.

FB is monopoly at this point. Very few people there are irreplaceable. If this was was a startup you might have more leverage. Mr. Amerige probably doesn't have much here. Mr. Amerige is probably making good money. If he gets fired good luck trying to get another job. Companies hate controversy. Trump won because of Facebook. I don't know why these guys are complaining.

> If he gets fired good luck trying to get another job. Companies hate controversy.

But they love skills.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#605

Post by jdhzzz » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

taysic wrote: post #407

chrisco255 wrote: post #227

This has become a big problem. Look at WeWork. That company banned employees from expensing meals that happened to have non-fish meat. I can't think of something more personal than what people choose to eat. They are imposing their beliefs about diet on employees. It's full blown coercion. Some companies are taking the activism a bit too far.

They're not really banning eating such meals - they simply don't want to cover their costs. I don't really see the issue personally. There are many things companies don't want to cover which they get to decide on.

Why doesn't the company provide a per diem for a legitimate business expense instead of trying to inject their (his? her?) morals into it? It is a needless intrusion on the part of the business. Ugh.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#606

Post by charlesism » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:32 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #496

charlesism wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanted to counter your points by presenting a hypothetical hiring example (one employee from a certain group, and another who votes a particular way), but that gets into an argument over whether certain US government policies are racist, and that's off topic for HN. As a general rule, I lob complaints at private companies. So I care at lot if Company X is doing ill to society (what I consider ill, at any rate). Whe…

> I wanted to counter your points by presenting a hypothetical hiring example (one employee from a certain group, and another who votes a particular way), but that gets into an argument over whether certain US government policies are racist This is not the case, I have discussed affirmative action and discrimination without repercussions (presumably what you're talking about). No policy I'm aware of prohibits it on H…

If I ran an English business in 1968, I probably wouldn't hire an Enoch Powell supporter.

I'm fine if an employee disagrees with me over how high income tax should be, or whether or not healthcare should be privatized. People are allowed to have different views. However if I think someone is intolerant, I don't want to help them. That kind of tolerance is tolerance in name only.

I wouldn't want to associate my business with, or financially support, an employee who, say, spends the weekends rallying to kick West Indians out of the country. Whether such rallies draw sparse, or teeming crowds, doesn't make a difference to me.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#607

Post by dang » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

07d046 wrote: post #560

nostromo wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general I agree with you, but neither pride nor tolerance training is political. Pride is like St. Paddy's Day or Chinese New Year: it's neither left or right. Tolerance training isn't political either. If an employer wants their employees to be comfortable at work, it's within their right to train employees to be tolerant of each other. It has nothing to do with politics. It's strange how gay people just being ga…

Chinese New Year can be political. Why is it celebrated under that name in Western countries, rather than Tết or Korean New Year or just Lunar New Year? And then add Chinese money funding the events for some soft power propagation...

It looks like you've been using HN primarily for political-ideological-national battle. That's a violation of the site rules, and we ban accounts that do it, so if you'd review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and please stop doing it, we'd appreciate it.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#608

Post by methodover » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #574

methodover wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. No one's saying that companies ought to only advocate for gay rights and leave behind every other issue. 2. I am tolerant towards everyone. It's actually not that difficult. 3. You seem to be a little confused on what gay rights are. Here's a summary: Gay people want to be treated fairly. We want our partner/spouse to be treated equally. We want our children to be treated equally. We want to not be fired for being…

1. No but you will have to prioritize which is exactly what is happening right now. That's a problem. 2. I agree so why question the Parents motives? 3. Not confused at all. Those are not gay rights they are human rights. You can replace the word gay with more or less anything and you will have the same. (Try read headed, try white, try black, try Swedish, try freckled, try fat). If you are a human you should have th…

“Those are not gay rights they are human rights”

You are misusing the English language. When a minority is targeted with animus and their rights are systematically violated, we tend to label the campaign to fight back against those things: Gay rights/Pride, Women’s rights/Feminism, African American’s rights, etc. This is done as a matter of pragmatism.

There’s no priortization of one group’s rights over another. Are you trying to say that when a minority is called out as being supported, that it makes you, who is not a member of that minority, feel left out? If not, then what is it? Be specific.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#609

Post by wellWisherToday » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:43 PM UTC

PunchTornado wrote: post #595

wellWisherToday wrote: post #542

Let us say person C1 says: "If person A1 preaches/supports discrimination/intolerance based on his/her belief, person A1 cannot complain about discrimination or intolerance he/she faces. One cannot say I should not be discriminated on any criteria, but I can discriminate others with some criteria which the other doesn't agree. A person B1 can have a moral compass that people should be treated as they treat others. In…

nobody right wing at facebook supports discrimination/intolerance against other people. Nobody says there, on that page, KKK quotes or preaches nazism. Being ring wing doesn't mean you're intolerant: - no general free healthcare, only private for people that work - lower taxes for everyone - no gender or racial quotas in hiring or entry at university (against positive discrimination) - no free trade agreements with o…

I agree with you. All the examples you gave should be seen as different opinion and a person should be able to have that and work peacefully.

However if someone says that certain people are more capable because of their gender will you call it discriminatory? (I would think it is).

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#610

Post by wilsonnb3 » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 5:43 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #588

wilsonnb3 wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unfamiliar with Larry Summers, but Damore wasn't just claiming that there were biological differences between the sexes. He was also claiming that those biological differences made women less suited to work in technology and leadership related positions.

Having read Damore’s memo, that’s categorically false, but of course he was smeared as having said that.

Having also read Damore's memo, it's not categorically false.

His stance was that women are, on average, more cooperative, more prone to anxiety, and less driven by status than men. He says that those traits explain the gender gap in tech employment because the current tech culture is high stress, requires long hours and hard work, and is highly competitive.

In other words, women are (on average) less suited to work in technology and leadership positions because of their biologically determined personality traits.