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How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

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Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#321

Post by jdhawk »

yiyus wrote: post #103
bunderbunder wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, whenever I see articles about Dutch cycling culture, the thing that stands out to me is that nobody is wearing helmets. In the US, I wouldn't dream of doing that - it's just too dangerous, because there's too much risk of being involved in a high speed collision. But, after having spent some time in the Netherlands, it's come to feel like a minor injustice every time I put my helmet on. It's a little…

Something I frequently see in the Netherlands and surprises me is how some driver parks his car, takes the child from the special seat with two belts, put him into a wood box in the front of his bike, and gets into traffic while checking his phone. I have a friend who takes her three children in a bike because she does not have a big enough car for three children seats.

Ah, the Bakfiets. Couple of toddlers, the family dog, and some groceries all rolling around in a box.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#322

Post by nojvek »

adrianN wrote: post #222
schlumpf wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyclists also willfully break traffic rules in SF with alarming regularity. Stop signs are generally regarded as ornamental, and even lightly traveled red lights. I am reminded of this every time my seven year-old cycling companion asks why such and such a person hasn't followed the rules when they blow past us. Both classes of vehicles have to be diligent.

To be fair, SF seems to have four-way stop signs at basically every intersection. I don't think we have four-way stop signs anywhere in Europe. Coming to a full stop and accelerating again every hundred meters slows you down a lot more on a bike. It's a pretty stupid road design for cars too, it kills your fuel economy.

Yep and the fact that only one car goes through at a time and drivers need to keep in mind whose turn it is.

It’s a really awful design. Just have a roundabout. It flows traffic through a lot better.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#323

Post by magduf »

bluejekyll wrote: post #223
schlumpf wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyclists also willfully break traffic rules in SF with alarming regularity. Stop signs are generally regarded as ornamental, and even lightly traveled red lights. I am reminded of this every time my seven year-old cycling companion asks why such and such a person hasn't followed the rules when they blow past us. Both classes of vehicles have to be diligent.

In Idaho it is perfectly legal for bicycles to treat Stop signs as yields, and Red lights as stop signs. It was attempted to get a similar law passed in CA: AB 1103. https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-aler... Many cyclists would agree that a rolling stop allows them to get through, when there is no traffic, the intersection much faster and more safely due to the dangers of an intersection. I'm no…

Coming to a full stop on a bike is downright dangerous. The act of unclipping from your pedal, stopping, and then starting again and having to clip back into your pedal is far more dangerous than just slowing down sufficiently to make sure there's no oncoming traffic. You're more likely to fall over when transitioning between moving and stopped on a bike than any other time, and falling over at an intersection is very dangerous.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#324

Post by magduf »

_fbpt wrote: post #220
TylerE wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drivers tests in the US are a joke.

That you think it's easy to pass drivers tests in the US is a joke.

Your comment is ignorant and insulting, since you're basically calling him a liar.

My US driving test was a joke. I pulled out of a parking space, pulled up to a road, took a right turn, drive 100-200 feet to an intersection, took a right turn, then took another right turn into the same parking lot I had just left, then parked. That was my entire driving test.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#325

Post by magduf »

bunderbunder wrote: post #5
Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

As an American, whenever I see articles about Dutch cycling culture, the thing that stands out to me is that nobody is wearing helmets. In the US, I wouldn't dream of doing that - it's just too dangerous, because there's too much risk of being involved in a high speed collision. But, after having spent some time in the Netherlands, it's come to feel like a minor injustice every time I put my helmet on. It's a little…

It's not just high speed that makes helmets useful: you can get a brain injury just falling over when you're stopped, if you hit your head on something hard (like asphalt or concrete, which most roads and sidewalks and curbs tend to be made of).

People's bodies simply were not evolved for a concrete environment. Helmets are how we deal with that.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#326

Post by magduf »

hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #156
watwut wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helmet does not help in high speed crash with car and is not designed for it. It helps in small falls.

I generally agree, but I want to point out that there is a huge range of impact protection depending on the general shape (e.g. 'aero' vs 'skater' style), construction (hard shell downhill MTB helmet vs typical road helmet) and fit. I can't count the number of times I've seen a cyclist with a terribly ill-fitting, poorly positioned helmet. I've seen many completely exposed foreheads, thanks to too much rearward tilt,…

Personally, though I ride a road bike, I wear a fairly standard MTB helmet. Really, I like the visor more than anything, but I do think it has better protection all-around.

I also use MTB (Shimano SPD) pedals: they're easy to clip in and out of, and I can wear normal-looking shoes that I can actually walk normally in.

The racing stuff is just ridiculous: it gets you a tiny improvement in performance at a huge penalty in usefulness. If you're not actually racing, it's pointless.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#327

Post by n4r9 »

gambiting wrote: post #264
joncrocks wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most countries in Europe (certainly in the UK, and other places I have visited), pedestrians have a separate crossing phase to the rest of traffic. The US is unusual in expecting pedestrians to cross while traffic is also trying to negotiate an intersection.

In some EU countries(Poland) pedestrians have a green light to go, even though cars turning right also have a green light - cars are expected to watch out for pedestrians crossing, even when they have a green light to go. I live in UK and the part of the traffic codex that seems to be unknown to literally all British drivers is the one that says "pedestrians have priority over cars making a turn" - so if you are cros…

Wow! All along I'd been thinking that those pedestrians who cross near a junction with barely more than a glance over their shoulder were reckless and unjustified. Now I guess I think it's just reckless.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#328

Post by magduf »

analog31 wrote: post #200
Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

>>> As a dutch person I would absolutely NOT want to ride a bike in the US, it's simply too dangerous. A lot of Americans also think it's too dangerous. It's an obstacle to getting more people on bikes. When people at my workplace see me with my bike, or find out that I'm a cyclist, they beg me to be careful, promise to wear a helmet, and so forth. I have friends who are avid cyclists, but who limit their riding to d…

>I have friends who are avid cyclists, but who limit their riding to dedicated bike paths or off-road trails, because they don't feel safe riding on the roads.

That's basically how I am. I live in the DC area, and luckily for me there's tons of really nice bike paths like the W&OD trail. I can easily ride 50+ miles in one ride here just sticking to these trails, and see a lot of different parts of the area. Or I'll ride on subdivision roads that are very low-traffic. But there's no way I'm riding on normal high-traffic roads around here; it's just too dangerous.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#329

Post by btrettel »

BlackFly wrote: post #290
btrettel wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strongly disagree. I've heard this argument before. I'm a cyclist and my experience with cyclists who run red lights is that the majority (if not the vast majority) ride so slowly that I can still pass them after they've run a red that I did not run without too much effort. So I doubt that you gain much distance. Plus, the credibility hit that ALL cyclists take for this alone makes this not worthwhile in my view. Cyc…

> I've often wondered if this contributes to bad driving around cyclists, e.g., "punishment passes". Of course it does, just like the few drivers who cavalierly pass a cyclist then make a right hand turn in front of them causing a collision or near collision contributes to cyclist animosity towards all drivers. The only thing unforgivable to most people is the proof that the people around us are humans and not robots…

> The point of these articles is to point out that creating the infrastructure properly eases most of the tension.

I'm not sure it's mainly an infrastructure problem. In my experience, US style infrastructure tends to amplify conflicts at intersections. The right hooks you mention become a lot more common, sometimes to the point where I refuse to use a particular facility solely because of this. But, it does make many newbie cyclists feel safer, which is important.

Ultimately I think we need a combination of the intersection protection measures mentioned in the article and also driver education to solve this problem.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#330

Post by jdavis703 »

u801e wrote: post #184
neivin wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would also fail your driver's test in SF if you don't check for bikers when making a right turn. However, this isn't the case if you do your test elsewhere. SF has pretty good bike infrastructure and awareness. I just did my driving test in the city, and this was drilled into my head by my instructor.

> You would also fail your driver's test in SF if you don't check for bikers when making a right turn. Infrastructure shouldn't be designed in a way to cause these types of turning conflicts. The general rule of the road is that vehicles on the right make right turns. Vehicles on the left make left turns, and vehicles in the middle proceed straight through the intersection. Turning conflicts, like what you're describ…

There's no way to eliminate turn conflicts except for eliminating all grade crossings. Even on protected bike lanes the right hook is still a significant risk. Drivers need to have it drilled in to their head to look before turning. Even if a bike isn't entering from a protected lane, there could be a pedestrian using the crosswalk.
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