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How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

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Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#211

Post by forapurpose »

hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #156
watwut wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Helmet does not help in high speed crash with car and is not designed for it. It helps in small falls.

I generally agree, but I want to point out that there is a huge range of impact protection depending on the general shape (e.g. 'aero' vs 'skater' style), construction (hard shell downhill MTB helmet vs typical road helmet) and fit. I can't count the number of times I've seen a cyclist with a terribly ill-fitting, poorly positioned helmet. I've seen many completely exposed foreheads, thanks to too much rearward tilt,…

I know about fit and positioning, but I haven't heard there are differences in safety due to shape or the "aero/race-inspired design". Where can I find out more about it? Has any research been done?

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#212

Post by shafyy »

bluejekyll wrote: post #157
ebikelaw wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived here for 20 years and I think you probably just have Stockholm Syndrome. The built environment is still trash and hasn't changed noticeably the entire time. There have been a few tiny marginal improvements, such as a handful of signals for bikes. Bike share I guess. Otherwise total stasis.

Which area of the city do you live in? I’ve seen numerous improvements to major commuter corridors over the years. Some examples: - Valencia street being narrowed and bike lanes on both sides, improved protection is being worked on. - protected lanes continue to be improved on Market, but it’s still not great. - the wiggle through the lower haight is nearly a bike boulevard - Ceasar Chavez, still not very safe, but t…

Completely agree. I've lived and biked in SF for over a year, and have seen great improvements in this short time.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#213

Post by lucb1e »

ebikelaw wrote: post #155
kazinator wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that in the USA, it's possible to see children in a playground wearing helmets.

That's something nobody should ever do, because the danger of being strangled is significant. https://helmets.org/playgrou.htm

That URL certainly looks like it didn't make it. For a minute I thought you managed to cut out a part somewhere in the middle but the link works!

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#214

Post by beefield »

schlumpf wrote: post #209
bluejekyll wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drivers often make mistakes here, and especially bicyclists. A lot of cars try to turn from the middle lane, which makes passing on the left more dangerous for cyclists. On top of that, many cyclists attempt to pass on the right, while cars are turning right. You are absolutely correct, but so many people don’t know the rules well enough to even realize they’re breaking them.

Cyclists also willfully break traffic rules in SF with alarming regularity. Stop signs are generally regarded as ornamental, and even lightly traveled red lights. I am reminded of this every time my seven year-old cycling companion asks why such and such a person hasn't followed the rules when they blow past us. Both classes of vehicles have to be diligent.

As a occasional cyclist with a habit of casually breaking all possible traffic rules that are relatively safely breakable, my thinking is that if I crash with a car, it is me who dies regardless who was right. So as long the traffic culture amongst car drivers is so ignorant toward cyclists that me following traffic rules and actually trying to use the rights the rules give me results to life expectancy calculated in weeks, I keep my relaxed attitude towards traffic rules. Once the driving culture is such that I can drive safely by following rules, I start considering following them. The ball on this one is on cars, not cycles.

(To be fair, when I drive a car, I find myself driving similarly badly way too often. So I definitely do not claim changing the culture is easy)

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#215

Post by kwhitefoot »

Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

> As a dutch person I would absolutely NOT want to ride a bike in the US,

It depends where you are. I used to spend a lot of time in Raleigh and Cary, North Carolina and often borrowed a bike to cycle from Cary to Raleigh and around both places, I was told by many Americans that it was dangerous but in fact I only had one slightly difficult moment in hundreds of kilometres of cycling and that was a low speed bus that came within ten centimetres of me.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#216

Post by lucb1e »

rogihee wrote: post #141
elboru wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t know that, I’ve only been to Amsterdam, what is different in other cities?

Less tourists on bikes that are the most dangerous cyclists around, every Dutch person knows :-)

Dutch person checking in, can confirm. I had to stop my Syrian classmate from crossing the bike paths without looking in, you guessed it, Amsterdam!

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#217

Post by lucb1e »

twoWhlsGud wrote: post #206
limaoscarjuliet wrote: post #152

Easy - they have no hills.

Hills end. Wind doesn't. (Source - memories of biking upwind against the air coming off the North Sea.) I'll take Seattle hills over Dutch headwinds any day...

From the few months living in Amsterdam (30km from sea, 1km from a huge lake) for studies, the difference between this and my home 150km inlands is huge. The kind of wind we get maybe four times a year is a bi-weekly occurrence in Amsterdam. Super annoying to have to bike to school, even if it's normally only like 7 minutes, against yet another feels-like-huge-storm wind.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#218

Post by halbritt »

schlumpf wrote: post #209
bluejekyll wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drivers often make mistakes here, and especially bicyclists. A lot of cars try to turn from the middle lane, which makes passing on the left more dangerous for cyclists. On top of that, many cyclists attempt to pass on the right, while cars are turning right. You are absolutely correct, but so many people don’t know the rules well enough to even realize they’re breaking them.

Cyclists also willfully break traffic rules in SF with alarming regularity. Stop signs are generally regarded as ornamental, and even lightly traveled red lights. I am reminded of this every time my seven year-old cycling companion asks why such and such a person hasn't followed the rules when they blow past us. Both classes of vehicles have to be diligent.

Sure.

There's a myriad of reasons why this is the case. Traffic signals and signage aren't designed for cyclists. Google a little.

Further, this is a false equivalence. When a cyclist fails to be diligent, the risks are fairly small. When a motorists fails to be diligent, other people die.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#219

Post by pitdicker »

gpvos wrote: post #84
neals wrote: post #26

It isn't all fun and games. I had to ride the bike to school for 5 years. Over in the neighbouring city. A 45 minute ride. Alone. Through wind, rain, wind and wind. And rain. That's also part of the culture, because it's safe and ok to send kids, 12 years old, on their own, in the dark over unlit forest roads. Through the wind. Also wind. Saves on bus fare. Which is also typically Dutch. I don't own a bike any more.

6 years, 35 minutes ride for me, admittedly mostly over a well-lit separate bike path, and most kids rode in groups of friends there. Only exception was when there was black ice on the road, then I took the bus. Strong side wind could be worse than rain, actually. Every country has its own way of building character. As we say in Dutch: we aren't made of sugar.

Good memories. I always took some extra tools with me when it was freezing, to put my bike 'back together' after falling because of those invisible ice patches. Or maybe some else's bike.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#220

Post by _fbpt »

TylerE wrote: post #193
neivin wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would also fail your driver's test in SF if you don't check for bikers when making a right turn. However, this isn't the case if you do your test elsewhere. SF has pretty good bike infrastructure and awareness. I just did my driving test in the city, and this was drilled into my head by my instructor.

Drivers tests in the US are a joke.

That you think it's easy to pass drivers tests in the US is a joke.
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