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Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

nytimes.com

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Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#561

Post by ndespres »

The manifesto states "There’s only going to be one core rule in the group, and it’s that if you attack a person’s character, rather than their ideas, you will be banned."

People whose ideas are on the wrong side of ethical will often say this sort of thing- as though the two things, a person's character and their ideas, are somehow not connected. I'm not sure where they get the idea that the ideas they support indicate a lot about their character, and they will be judged accordingly.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#562

Post by [deleted] »

princekolt wrote: post #374
chrisco255 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with this "professional self" thing. I think you should bring your whole self to work...but sure, as with everything that should come in moderation. We all go to work to do a job, after all. But maybe the core problem is that we can't just agree to disagree, on some things. We have gotten to the point, as a society, that if you are right of center (in some circles), you're batshit alt-right crazy. And t…

> What the hell happened where everyone's trying to bite each other's heads off all the time? Here is the issue: while the left is saying "we need better healthcare, immigrants are a part of this country's foundations, and student debt will cripple the nation", the right firmly supports a POTUS that says "Mexicans are rapists, peaceful protesters are a disgrace, and the media is the enemy of the people." And the reas…

[deleted]

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#563

Post by euroclydon »

tptacek wrote: post #58
euroclydon wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that a bunch of highly paid conservative software developers would unionize and get the NLRB involved is rich.

Why? We're all generally well-paid (even with respect to the value we create). But this whole message board is practically dedicated to the ways in which our industry pisses us off, from confiscatory IP clauses to open offices to death march projects. Who's to say labor can't organize simply for a better shop to work in? That's not unprecedented.

I still think the vast majority of software engineers are either 1) Thankful (if they take a few minutes to consider the unique time in history in which they are employed) that given their relatively modest education investment, they are making the salaries they are. And these are probably your non-high-ranking-university CS majors, those without a college degree, L.A. majors, etc or 2) Graduates of top C.S. programs who are making really great salaries.

What real incentive do they have to unionize even along a professional path? I just don't see having their political views stifled at work to be a big motivator.

It's a cart/horse position problem. If we had to go to school for 7-10 years to be a doctor or lawyer, then of course, we'd want the protection and insurance of a professional licensing organization. But if I can make half the money of a doctor or lawyer without all the hassle, then why bother?

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#564

Post by _8j50 »

aluren wrote: post #170
_8j50 wrote: post #84

Worked across very liberal and very conservative places in tech. Neither is pleasant. In my opinion, the American self-image and self-worth largely characterized by subscription to a political ideology is the problem. What bothers me is not dress codes,free meals,open offices,etc... But the very idea that a company would display or promote politics in the work place. Why are companies promoting "pride",donating to tr…

I don't mean any offense, but it has been my experience that people who can afford to "put politics aside", so to speak, are people from demographics who didn't have politics "happen" to them. When you are gay or trans and a significant chunk of people find your mere existence revolting, when you are black and a significant chunk of people believe you are innately less intelligent and more prone to violence, when you…

Wrong,you're being presumptuous. I would not be 'tolerated' in most workplaces either 60+ years ago. Even now I face difficulties. Please don't be presumptuous.

One of the most offensive things I experienced in a liberal workplace was being treated differently(for my benefit) because of the 'group' I belonged to.

You show up to work to do a job not to struggle in politics. I should be accepted as a human and a coworker,not as a member of whatever group I belong to. You have the right to earn a living and feed yourself and family because you are human and you have the skills and qualifications for the job. Your membership to some socio-political group neither qualifies nor disqualifies you.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#565

Post by mcphage »

Const-me wrote: post #551
ionised wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these white heterosexual Christians defending their identity against?

Against treats to that identity. Through most of the history, the threats were imaginary, and it was conservative majority who oppressed other people. Recently however, in places like Bay Area, the conservatives are no longer a majority, and consequently the treats became quite real, see e.g. https://www.scribd.com/document/368692388/James-Damore-Lawsu... I don’t think the right way to solve this is oppress, stamp ou…

> Recently however, in places like Bay Area, the conservatives are no longer a majority, and consequently the treats became quite real

Spoiler Alert: the current threats to their identity are just as imaginary. White heterosexual conservatives will eventually learn how to be a minority, just like every other identity in this country has.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#566

Post by casiotone »

sosense wrote: post #391
casiotone wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, there are some real reprehensible morons on this site, but this takes the fucking cake.

Is that supposed to convince me of something / change my mind about something?

Oh no, your mind is clearly too far gone. I only want you to feel a deep shame.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#567

Post by mmirate »

charlesism wrote: post #444
mmirate wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the majority of the country holds a philosophy that favors the majority of the country, that doesn't automatically make it ethical. Congratulations, you've discovered why democracy is stupid.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic? Without additional protections, such as a bill of rights, "democracy" is stupid. But most us live in " liberal democracies", which are as good as it gets.

> I can't tell if you're being sarcastic?

I didn't put a "/s" because doing so would convey an inaccuracy.

> Without additional protections, such as a bill of rights, "democracy" is stupid. But most us live in "liberal democracies", which are as good as it gets.

Our Bill of Rights doesn't say squat about what happens when 51% of the population decide that they want to steal all of your possessions for themselves. If a dispute-resolver (especially a monopolistic one, aka a government) does not purport to protect from even the simple crime of theft, then it is most stupid.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#568

Post by jhayward »

mc32 wrote: post #372
fatjokes wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. I completely disagree with the whole "bring your whole self to work". No! Bring your professional self to work. The counter-argument is that the causes relate to discrimination in the workforce. I.e., BLM needs to be supported because blacks are underrepresented in the American tech workforce. I disagree these need to be equivalent. It's possible for a company to promote hiring underrepresented minorities…

Up front, I believe it's for the good of American society that more women should be in tech in America. That said, I think companies should go out there and ensure they engage people at the start, in Elementary school. Be they women, blacks and even whites (see the many H1Bs we need to shore up demand). But... I don't think this should be a PR stunt. Or should be politicized. Go out there, and do the hard work. Engag…

> That said, I think companies should go out there and ensure they engage people at the start, in Elementary school. Be they women, blacks and even whites (see the many H1Bs we need to shore up demand).

This appears to be a form of the "pipeline" argument, that the problem with low participation rates by some demographic groups is due to a lack of those people in the earlier stages of the career pipeline to the workplace.

The thing to understand about the pipeline problem is that it is the same thing as the hostile/discriminating workplace problem. The pipeline leaks at every stage, from kindergarten to the boardroom, because some demo groups are supported, assumed capable, etc, and others are not.

So the solutions are the same at every level: workplace and school policies that explicitly correct the inequitable treatment, both structural and individual.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#569

Post by username90 »

omot wrote: post #240

I think this issue is tricky, because some political ideology that the "right" expresses involve a statement of the identity of their coworkers. I find that in the valley, people express diverse set of political economic ideologies, but sensitive social issues are taboo. I think people probably shouldn't view it as lack of diversity of political opinions, it's more that statements and ideology expressed at work shoul…

> some political ideology that the "right" expresses involve a statement of the identity of their coworkers.

That stereotype is the problem. Lots of people on the right have nothing against women's rights, lgbt rights, black rights etc, but still gets treated as if were against those things just for expressing unrelated conservative talking points.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#570

Post by wilsonnb3 »

philwelch wrote: post #508
wilsonnb3 wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of those makes you alt right. You'll find absolute free speech advocates on both the left and the right. It's more of a libertarian/authoritarian issue than a left/right issue. Only extremists on the left would disagree that sex differences are partially/fully biological (depending on how you're defining biological and sex).

> Only extremists on the left would disagree that sex differences are partially/fully biological (depending on how you're defining biological and sex). Unfortunately, there were enough “extremists” to get both Larry Summers and James Damore fired.

I'm unfamiliar with Larry Summers, but Damore wasn't just claiming that there were biological differences between the sexes.

He was also claiming that those biological differences made women less suited to work in technology and leadership related positions.

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