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How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

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Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#281

Post by u801e »

SECProto wrote: post #210
u801e wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You would also fail your driver's test in SF if you don't check for bikers when making a right turn. Infrastructure shouldn't be designed in a way to cause these types of turning conflicts. The general rule of the road is that vehicles on the right make right turns. Vehicles on the left make left turns, and vehicles in the middle proceed straight through the intersection. Turning conflicts, like what you're describ…

By that measure, we shouldn't have crosswalks at intersections, and walkers should walk into the street, past the right turn lane, to avoid turning conflict.

There's a difference between a pedestrian moving at 3 to 6 mph and a cyclist going 10 to 20 mph. This is why crossing intersections as a pedestrian at cyclist speeds is much more hazardous to cyclists (compared to pedestrians moving at typical pedestrian speeds) because drivers don't expect someone moving that fast when they're making a turn across a crosswalk.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#282

Post by KozmoNau7 »

Scarblac wrote: post #259
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've broken two helmets over my years of cycling, quite possibly saving me from at least one skull fracture. So a helmet is mandatory to me. However, I don't want it to be mandated by law. That has shown to keep a lot of people from cycling.

But were you on a racing bike, going at speed? In that situation the Dutch use helmets too. For normal traffic use, people in the Netherlands use bikes where you sit in an upright position, and they don't go very fast (like 15 km/h). You can take quick evasive action away from the road, or put a foot on the ground to prevent a fall. It's hard to imagine breaking a helmet on a non-racing bike here.

Normal riding, once was on a flat road on an ordinary city bike (saddle ~same height as handlebars, not full tuck like a racer), the other was downhill on a mountain bike (on asphalt). In both cases I flipped over the front, because the front wheel turned perpendicular to the direction of travel.

I average around 20-22kph on my 8km commute riding my current bike. It's nothing particularly special, just an 8-speed city bike, and I certainly don't go all-out, I ride at what feels like a comfortable speed for the bike.

Biking in Copenhagen, I definitely see a fair share of people on granny bikes dawdling along, they're much more likely to crash due to sudden mechanical failure, or due to inattention from staring at their damn phones.

But either way, we're only talking about solo accidents. You can certainly also hit your head against the hood of a car, for instance.

Besides, I like wearing the helmet. It concentrates airflow across the top of my head, and it gives me more area to put stickers on.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#283

Post by Elte »

> The Dutch use bikes as a tool to feed their transit system: 50 percent of all trips that take place on the transit system in the Netherlands begin with a bicycle ride.

This is why I'm still waiting for Google Maps and the likes to include an "I have a bike and am willing to use it to get to the closest train/metro/bus station" option.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#284

Post by u801e »

schlumpf wrote: post #209
bluejekyll wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drivers often make mistakes here, and especially bicyclists. A lot of cars try to turn from the middle lane, which makes passing on the left more dangerous for cyclists. On top of that, many cyclists attempt to pass on the right, while cars are turning right. You are absolutely correct, but so many people don’t know the rules well enough to even realize they’re breaking them.

Cyclists also willfully break traffic rules in SF with alarming regularity. Stop signs are generally regarded as ornamental, and even lightly traveled red lights. I am reminded of this every time my seven year-old cycling companion asks why such and such a person hasn't followed the rules when they blow past us. Both classes of vehicles have to be diligent.

> Cyclists also willfully break traffic rules

The same thing also applies to motorists and pedestrians. Also, generalizations like this lead to the attitude that it's somehow the cyclists fault if they get hit by the car even if they are following the rules.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#285

Post by rahkiin »

Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

It got only one thing wrong: there are roads that allow 50km/h and 60km/h without dedicated cycling roads (or with curbs). The former sometimes has no cycling indication, the latter is seen with a 1.5 width car lane with two smaller res bicycle lanes around it. These are rarely seen in cities though but are very common in rural areas (the Dutch rural, which would probably be 'suburban' in the US).

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#286

Post by KozmoNau7 »

donjoe wrote: post #77
TulliusCicero wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. That's not geography, that's urban planning, or a lack of it. America's geographic size meant that we could sprawl, not that we had to. And indeed, especially in the post-WW2 e…

And no one ever drove you off your bike in Munich yet? Lucky you! I use my bike every day and I don't mind the winter either. I still can count the times I've been hit. Near misses though happen almost daily. Especially with cars turning right not watching bike lanes. Good luck and keep on cycling!

Bavaria is basically the Texas of Germany. They love big cars and traditional gender roles, and they hate any vehicle not powered by fossil fuels.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#287

Post by tremon »

Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

Basically everything, except one thing: the speed threshold where physically separate bike lanes are mandatory is 50km/h, not 30. That happily coincides with the in-city speed limit for cars.

You will still find many physically separated bike lanes even on 50-kph roads if they carry heavy traffic, but it's not mandated by law. It just happens that sharing a road with cyclists also slows down cars, and that decreases traffic throughput.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#288

Post by 2T1Qka0rEiPr »

I love this, but I wonder if cycling in The Netherlands is similar to my experience in Germany.

I would classify myself as a "wielrenner". In Berlin for example, whilst the cycling infrastructure is also generally good as a cyclist you're practically forced to use these really thin cycle paths full of "fietser"s (to continue the Dutch terminology). That, in combination with generally very bumpy paths, can make getting from A-B quickly highly frustrating. However, cycling on the road is a nightmare. In some situations its forbidden altogether, and generally drivers are really aggressive about your mere presence even when they're perfectly capable of driving around you. Coming from the UK, I'd actually rather drive on the road with the knowledge that I'm a first-class citizen of said road, and be able to cycle at my own pace.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#289

Post by watermanio »

teddyh wrote: post #278
nothrabannosir wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> part of the traffic codex that seems to be unknown to literally all British drivers is the one that says "pedestrians have priority over cars making a turn" They have a very efficient system for reminding fellow road users, though. Two fingers in the air slightly apart, a pedestrian’s walking legs upside down, indicating the priority reversal. People are generally very receptive to this, because it is quintessentia…

Please don’t spread dangerous misinformation, even as a joke. Note to non-UK-residents: The described gesture is, in fact, a very rude insulting gesture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#As_an_insult

> dangerous misinformation

Oh come on, making a V sign is not dangerous. Most likely, someone shouts an original insult to you.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#290

Post by BlackFly »

btrettel wrote: post #113
PascLeRasc wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how you have to ride to survive in car-centric America. You need to assume every car at an intersection has an incentive to hit you and run lights/stop signs to get distance and maintain speed. I'm a pretty normal cyclist most of the time but after several "Pittsburgh left" collisions at intersections I'm fighting for my life.

Strongly disagree. I've heard this argument before. I'm a cyclist and my experience with cyclists who run red lights is that the majority (if not the vast majority) ride so slowly that I can still pass them after they've run a red that I did not run without too much effort. So I doubt that you gain much distance. Plus, the credibility hit that ALL cyclists take for this alone makes this not worthwhile in my view. Cyc…

> I've often wondered if this contributes to bad driving around cyclists, e.g., "punishment passes".

Of course it does, just like the few drivers who cavalierly pass a cyclist then make a right hand turn in front of them causing a collision or near collision contributes to cyclist animosity towards all drivers. The only thing unforgivable to most people is the proof that the people around us are humans and not robots: they make mistakes, they change their mind, they break the rules.

The point of these articles is to point out that creating the infrastructure properly eases most of the tension. Treating a bicycle as a separate form of transportation is better than treating them like a vehicle in most scenarios and making some limited exceptions for passing or driving on the sidewalk.

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