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How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

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Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#191

Post by tokai »

dmckeon wrote: post #128
codr4 wrote: post #27

From having spent quite some time in Amsterdam, I would say that you're safer on a bike than on foot. When a biker rings the bell on you in Amsterdam it's not a heads up or suggestion to get out of the way like in the rest of the world; it's quite possibly the last thing you will ever hear. From my experience, they go fast and expect you to move out of the way. Or you could try to not walk in bike lanes, I guess; not…

If the pavement below your feet is red, move off of it. Pretend it is hot lava, or stained red with the spilled blood of other naive visitors, if that helps. :-) I recall red pavement from Hamburg, as well - is it a pattern/standard only for the more coastal/flat places, or common throughout Northern EU countries?

They are blue in Denmark when painted.

https://www.tv2lorry.dk/files/styles/16_9_large_2x/public/me...

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#192

Post by rorykoehler »

Fritsdehacker wrote: post #44
codr4 wrote: post #27

From having spent quite some time in Amsterdam, I would say that you're safer on a bike than on foot. When a biker rings the bell on you in Amsterdam it's not a heads up or suggestion to get out of the way like in the rest of the world; it's quite possibly the last thing you will ever hear. From my experience, they go fast and expect you to move out of the way. Or you could try to not walk in bike lanes, I guess; not…

I lived in Amsterdam for more than ten years and recently moved to a smaller city. Amsterdam really has it's own bike "culture". Cyclist in the rest of Holland are far more forgiving to pedestrians and other traffic in general in my experience. I have no trouble cycling in Amsterdam, but I do have to pay a lot more attention than normally.

The over abundance of naive tourists blocking the way probably destroyed any goodwill Amsterdammers may have had.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#193

Post by TylerE »

neivin wrote: post #105
bluejekyll wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a dutch person I would absolutely NOT want to ride a bike in the US, it's simply too dangerous. I understand this perspective, but as a counter to this, if no one bikes in the US then this won't change. I ride all over San Francisco. In the last 18 years of me living here things have gotten better and better for the cyclist, but there are still many areas that can be improved. I encourage you to support local or…

You would also fail your driver's test in SF if you don't check for bikers when making a right turn. However, this isn't the case if you do your test elsewhere. SF has pretty good bike infrastructure and awareness. I just did my driving test in the city, and this was drilled into my head by my instructor.

Drivers tests in the US are a joke.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#194

Post by TylerE »

pedrosorio wrote: post #173
siruncledrew wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels dangerously unsafe to even ride a motorcycle with a helmet and skid gear in car-heavy, “share the road” areas. Biking with a 20lbs road bike and just a helmet when 3000+lbs pickups are zooming past you feels like Russian roulette.

> when 3000lbs pickups are zooming past you Apparently a Honda Accord 2018 weighs more than 3,000 lbs (up to 3,428). Also, and somewhat surprising given the above, you can buy a Ford F-150 that weighs just 4,000 lbs

This isn't really surprising to anyone that pays attention to cars. The safety innovations of the 90s (crumble zones, etc) added a lot of weight, and cars have just gotten a LOT bigger.

The Accord, for instance, gained almost 2 feet in length and 6 inches in width between the late 80s and today.

Of course, the trucks were smaller back then too - The Ford Ranger (1989) model weighed only 2800lbs.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#195

Post by ajmurmann »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #97
PascLeRasc wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other thing is that Europe doesn't have nearly as many huge SUVs as America. Helps a ton with visibility, driver awareness, braking speed, and less momentum in collisions.

huge SUVs Oh yes, those huge things (trucks, too) with dark tinted windows are the pox on wheels. On a motorbike you sit higher and can look over regular passenger cars, and you can see all the road in front of you. But if you ride behind one of these antisocial fuck-you-I've-got-mine hulks you can't see the road, and it's life-threatening.

Even being in a car these damn things are a problem. I would prefer a refund sedan as my next car, but because your visibility gets negatively impact when sitting in a low cat like that with all the SUVs around you, it will likely have to be a higher car like a Rav4 again.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#196

Post by forapurpose »

watwut wrote: post #23
bunderbunder wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, whenever I see articles about Dutch cycling culture, the thing that stands out to me is that nobody is wearing helmets. In the US, I wouldn't dream of doing that - it's just too dangerous, because there's too much risk of being involved in a high speed collision. But, after having spent some time in the Netherlands, it's come to feel like a minor injustice every time I put my helmet on. It's a little…

Helmet does not help in high speed crash with car and is not designed for it. It helps in small falls.

Consumer Reports does excellent research, I recently discovered, not only their own original research on products but they provide the background literature too:

https://www.consumerreports.org/head-injuries/wear-a-helmet-...

The majority of serious injuries from cycling have one thing in common, says Fred Rivara, M.D., M.P.H., a professor of pediatrics at the University of Washington. “Two thirds of hospitalizations and three quarters of deaths from bicycle injuries are due to head injuries,” he says. “The most effective way to prevent that from occurring is to wear a helmet.”

Indeed, extensive research has demonstrated that a helmet is the best way[0] riders can protect themselves against head injuries—especially those that are potentially fatal.[1]

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/bike-helmets/buying-guid...

Statistics bear it out: According to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, in the majority of bicyclist deaths the most serious injuries are to the head, highlighting the importance of wearing a bicycle helmet. Helmet use has been estimated to reduce the odds of head injury by 50 percent and the odds of head, face, or neck injury by 33 percent.

Tangentially, here's how they test bike helmets:

In our tests we strap helmets onto head forms and use an apparatus that drops the helmets at about 14 mph onto a flat anvil to find out how well they withstand impact. An electronic sensor inside the head form monitors the force that would be transmitted to a rider’s skull in an accident.

We also test the strength of helmet chinstraps, attachment points, and buckles. We drop an 8 3⁄4-pound weight 2 feet so that it yanks on the straps to simulate the force that might occur in a crash.

EDIT: Add a paragraph and footnotes

[0] http://www.cochrane.org/CD001855/INJ_wearing-a-helmet-dramat...

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27450862

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#197

Post by megaremote »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #70

the bike alone doesn’t replace the private automobile, and neither does public transit, but when you combine the two, that’s when the magic happens. Then the car becomes redundant in cities. I love the picture of a guy moving a bed on an oversized and strange (to my eyes) three wheeler.

How often are you moving a bed? How many people are moving beds on a daily basis. You might as well say you can't bike to China.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#198

Post by DoreenMichele »

megaremote wrote: post #197
DoreenMichele wrote: post #70

the bike alone doesn’t replace the private automobile, and neither does public transit, but when you combine the two, that’s when the magic happens. Then the car becomes redundant in cities. I love the picture of a guy moving a bed on an oversized and strange (to my eyes) three wheeler.

How often are you moving a bed? How many people are moving beds on a daily basis. You might as well say you can't bike to China.

Humorously, I don't expect to ever move a bed again. I currently sleep on a blanket on a wood floor.

None of which is relevant to "Hey, cool, there are totally cargo bikes. That's a thing!"

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#199

Post by bluejekyll »

u801e wrote: post #184
neivin wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would also fail your driver's test in SF if you don't check for bikers when making a right turn. However, this isn't the case if you do your test elsewhere. SF has pretty good bike infrastructure and awareness. I just did my driving test in the city, and this was drilled into my head by my instructor.

> You would also fail your driver's test in SF if you don't check for bikers when making a right turn. Infrastructure shouldn't be designed in a way to cause these types of turning conflicts. The general rule of the road is that vehicles on the right make right turns. Vehicles on the left make left turns, and vehicles in the middle proceed straight through the intersection. Turning conflicts, like what you're describ…

Drivers often make mistakes here, and especially bicyclists. A lot of cars try to turn from the middle lane, which makes passing on the left more dangerous for cyclists. On top of that, many cyclists attempt to pass on the right, while cars are turning right.

You are absolutely correct, but so many people don’t know the rules well enough to even realize they’re breaking them.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#200

Post by analog31 »

Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

>>> As a dutch person I would absolutely NOT want to ride a bike in the US, it's simply too dangerous.

A lot of Americans also think it's too dangerous. It's an obstacle to getting more people on bikes.

When people at my workplace see me with my bike, or find out that I'm a cyclist, they beg me to be careful, promise to wear a helmet, and so forth. I have friends who are avid cyclists, but who limit their riding to dedicated bike paths or off-road trails, because they don't feel safe riding on the roads.

Just looking at pictures and videos, it's apparent to me that cyclists in the US and Netherlands have very different riding habits due to the differences in conditions. The Dutch seem so carefree. Americans seem to have a much more wary, defensive, and sometimes aggressive style, and may prefer more maneuverable bikes for a reason. You'd probably get used to it, as lots of us do.

We also probably have to pay more attention to planning our routes to avoid the worst of traffic. I know all of the dedicated bike paths and side roads in my town. Google Maps gives different routes for bikes and cars. Residential streets have lots of cars but not a lot of traffic volume. I actually encounter relatively few cars on my rides.

Much as I defend cycling in the US, I'd still prefer the Dutch environment.

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