What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD • Hacker News Board

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#21

Post by jedberg » Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 12:50 AM UTC

This is total anecdata, but out of my closest college friends, five of them went to get a PhD, while I went to industry. When they graduated, I was already making more than of all of them, with five years of industry experience. And I made more them them for the next thirteen years too. I never hit any magical ceiling where a PhD was necessary.

In other words, don't do a PhD if you're in it for the money.

It may open a few more interview doors for you, but honestly, at least in my experience, I wasn't even aware of which of my coworkers had PhDs. When I eventually found out, they were all just slightly older than me working at the same pay grade.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#22

Post by aardvark291 » Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 12:53 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #6

michaericalribo wrote: post #4

This gets it right, I think. And I say that as someone who does not regret taking five years to get a PhD. A PhD is too long, narrow, and frustrating to do just to get a slightly fatter paycheck. For some reason, that deep dive clicked with me, and I’m grateful for all the personal growth that came from that. But for the vast majority of people, I think it could easily end as an exercise in frustration.

Five years is a super long PhD. If you can get it done in two or three years it makes more sense.

My PhD in experimental physics took seven years, which is also the average time to completion in that field.

The discrepancy here may be that "PhD time" in the US usually includes a masters, while it is counted separately elsewhere. That said, even if you break it down, my MS took 2 years and the PhD took another 5.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#23

Post by account2 » Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 12:56 AM UTC

throwawaymath wrote: post #18

account2 wrote: post #2

I have several questions regarding this: 1) Do FAANG companies hire non-PhDs for machine learning positions? Most seem to require a MS or PhD 2) What are the interview questions like at FAANG companies for machine learning positions? Is the interview different if you don't have a PhD? 3) For non-PhDs applying, what are the math requirements for the job? 4) For people that have a PhD working in ML at a FAANG, do you f…

> 1) Do FAANG companies hire non-PhDs for machine learning positions? Most seem to require a MS or PhD That depends on what you mean by "machine learning positions" and what your bar for normalcy is. For research roles - these generally have distinct titles like "Research Scientist" or "Quantitative Researcher" - it is extremely difficult to get an interview without a PhD, let alone an offer. It happens , but rarely,…

Thanks. Can you list what courses one should focus on as a baseline to do research in ML? You mentioned Probability theory & Linear algebra, but what specific topics in those areas should one learn? Any other fields of math?

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#24

Post by thebooktocome » Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 12:57 AM UTC

apo wrote: post #15

thebooktocome wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd help if industry didn't treat undergrads as though their labor were worthless.

That's a pretty broad brush to be painting with. What were the specifics of your situation?

My situation is I'm in this conversation with a random online persona who thinks that aspiring PhDs are ignorant of industry.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#25

Post by throwawayjava » Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 12:57 AM UTC

jccalhoun wrote: post #19

I have a phd in a Communication-realted field. I like my job at a community college but I am over-educated for it. However, I burned out on trying to get published. My advice is if you have doubt about going to grad school then don't. There are tons of people competing for every job. There is no guarantee you will get a job and there are fewer and fewer tenure track jobs. I was lucky to get out of adjuncting hell and…

> There are tons of people competing for every (faculty) job.

This is not at all the case in Computer Science. Especially permanent positions at CCs and lecturing at universities, there are more roles than people at the moment. Mostly because the worst-case alternative is taking one of the plentifully available 100k-200k industry jobs. Especially in ML.

Generally, "don't get a Ph.D. planning that you'll be a professor" is good advice. CS at the moment is the exception that proves the rule. Especially outside of R1.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#26

Post by GuiA » Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 12:59 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #21

This is total anecdata, but out of my closest college friends, five of them went to get a PhD, while I went to industry. When they graduated, I was already making more than of all of them, with five years of industry experience. And I made more them them for the next thirteen years too. I never hit any magical ceiling where a PhD was necessary. In other words, don't do a PhD if you're in it for the money. It may open…

I was in a PhD program, I dropped out. I have been working in R&D at a large company for a while now; many of my best colleagues have PhDs, many others do not. As far as my personal experience is concerned, a PhD has no bearing whatsoever on your capacity to do solid research.

That said, I am seriously considering going back on the PhD route, because I think I’d like to spend more time teaching down the line. Kind of silly, but I have only a master’s and it seems like most higher ed institutions do not consider hiring you as a professor unless you have the magical piece of paper.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#27

Post by sktrdie » Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 1:00 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #21

This is total anecdata, but out of my closest college friends, five of them went to get a PhD, while I went to industry. When they graduated, I was already making more than of all of them, with five years of industry experience. And I made more them them for the next thirteen years too. I never hit any magical ceiling where a PhD was necessary. In other words, don't do a PhD if you're in it for the money. It may open…

But it’s so sad to be in it just for the money. If a phd will allow you to eventually do the things that you love, that should be the priority.

Of course you can do what you love also without a PhD, but I’d argue that a PhD will eventually allow you to explore fields and things that are not economically viable.

In fact I would say that it’s just plain sad that we have to choose something based on how economically viable it is (industry) rather than purely for its interesting properties.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#28

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 1:08 AM UTC

sktrdie wrote: post #27

jedberg wrote: post #21

This is total anecdata, but out of my closest college friends, five of them went to get a PhD, while I went to industry. When they graduated, I was already making more than of all of them, with five years of industry experience. And I made more them them for the next thirteen years too. I never hit any magical ceiling where a PhD was necessary. In other words, don't do a PhD if you're in it for the money. It may open…

But it’s so sad to be in it just for the money. If a phd will allow you to eventually do the things that you love, that should be the priority. Of course you can do what you love also without a PhD, but I’d argue that a PhD will eventually allow you to explore fields and things that are not economically viable. In fact I would say that it’s just plain sad that we have to choose something based on how economically via…

If you want to do something purely for its interesting properties, you don't need a PhD to do it.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#29

Post by stochastic_monk » Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 1:09 AM UTC

apo wrote: post #13

I grossly underestimated how much I could learn by working in industry. I believed the falsehood that the best way to always keep learning is to stay in academia, and I didn’t have a good grasp on the opportunity costs of doing a PhD. My undergraduate experience had been magical, and I had always both excelled at and enjoyed being in school. The idea of getting paid to be in school sounded like a sweet deal! Wholehea…

I chose to do a PhD after several years in industry. I feel like was better prepared to produce than my colleagues without having done so were.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#30

Post by nicodjimenez » Tue, Aug 28, 2018, 1:12 AM UTC

A PhD is a license to do deep research. Deep research careers are very rare, but for the right kind of person, they're great. However, deep research by definition means it probably won't work, and there's just a lot more money in doing things that will probably work vs things that probably won't. So it helps to be extremely talented at deep research if you want to pursue the PhD.

Also, most engineering PhD's are bogus because most engineering "research" is actually not deep research - it's building prototypes that aren't quite useful but not quite that novel or interesting either. If you're in a PhD program and you're not doing something really interesting and fundamental, you're definitely in a tough spot.