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What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

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Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#11

Post by trentlott »

bbeekley wrote: post #7
chrisseaton wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Five years is a super long PhD. If you can get it done in two or three years it makes more sense.

I assume the 5 years means starting with a Bachelors. At least in the US, it's fairly unheard of to finish a PhD in 3 years or less.

Yeah. As a chem PhD, the average tends toward 4.5-5.5ish.

Between classes, teaching, and genuinely getting things done, it's not a fast experience.

Also, you probably arent making a ton more unless you go for an industry job...which is a little bit the opposite of the Platonic independence supposedly at the heart of the training method.

But very few people I know want to be a PI.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#12

Post by rntz »

chrisseaton wrote: post #6
michaericalribo wrote: post #4

This gets it right, I think. And I say that as someone who does not regret taking five years to get a PhD. A PhD is too long, narrow, and frustrating to do just to get a slightly fatter paycheck. For some reason, that deep dive clicked with me, and I’m grateful for all the personal growth that came from that. But for the vast majority of people, I think it could easily end as an exercise in frustration.

Five years is a super long PhD. If you can get it done in two or three years it makes more sense.

In computer science in the US, this is just false. Four years is the usual "officially expected" length of a PhD straight out of a bachelors' (which is the most common way to do a PhD in CS in the US). In practice it usually takes longer, sometimes much longer (seven+ years is not unheard of).

In the UK and Europe, shorter PhDs are much more common, in part because you're expected to do a master's before a PhD.

Even for two or three years, I don't think getting a computer science PhD is a good bet if your primary goal is making more money.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#13

Post by apo »

I grossly underestimated how much I could learn by working in industry. I believed the falsehood that the best way to always keep learning is to stay in academia, and I didn’t have a good grasp on the opportunity costs of doing a PhD. My undergraduate experience had been magical, and I had always both excelled at and enjoyed being in school. The idea of getting paid to be in school sounded like a sweet deal!

Wholeheartedly agree. Aspiring PhDs discount what industry can teach them. The problem is compounded by undergrads who have zero industry experience when they graduate.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#14

Post by thebooktocome »

apo wrote: post #13

I grossly underestimated how much I could learn by working in industry. I believed the falsehood that the best way to always keep learning is to stay in academia, and I didn’t have a good grasp on the opportunity costs of doing a PhD. My undergraduate experience had been magical, and I had always both excelled at and enjoyed being in school. The idea of getting paid to be in school sounded like a sweet deal! Wholehea…

It'd help if industry didn't treat undergrads as though their labor were worthless.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#15

Post by apo »

thebooktocome wrote: post #14
apo wrote: post #13

I grossly underestimated how much I could learn by working in industry. I believed the falsehood that the best way to always keep learning is to stay in academia, and I didn’t have a good grasp on the opportunity costs of doing a PhD. My undergraduate experience had been magical, and I had always both excelled at and enjoyed being in school. The idea of getting paid to be in school sounded like a sweet deal! Wholehea…

It'd help if industry didn't treat undergrads as though their labor were worthless.

That's a pretty broad brush to be painting with. What were the specifics of your situation?

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#16

Post by trentlott »

apo wrote: post #13

I grossly underestimated how much I could learn by working in industry. I believed the falsehood that the best way to always keep learning is to stay in academia, and I didn’t have a good grasp on the opportunity costs of doing a PhD. My undergraduate experience had been magical, and I had always both excelled at and enjoyed being in school. The idea of getting paid to be in school sounded like a sweet deal! Wholehea…

A PhD is nothing like undergrad.

If you spend time working in a lab with grad students, listen to them. Heed their points about the field and their boss.

Research is research, and maybe you'll have some idea of what the technical details of the field are. But the only way you know what your life will be like is to pay attention. It's not bad, but you're trading something real to have "Dr." on your magazine subscriptions.

My biggest concern is more people getting PhDs, and the process becoming the New Bachelor degree, particularly in STEM.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#17

Post by sdrothrock »

david-gpu wrote: post #10
sdrothrock wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to know a variation on this: > 4) For people that have a PhD working in ML at a FAANG, do you feel like you use your PhD level skills day-to-day? 5) For people who work with a mix of PhDs and non-PhDs in the same field, do you notice a difference in output quality?

5) No, but I am obviously biased due to not having a PhD. I doubt you are going to get an unbiased answer from anybody; everybody wants to believe they made the right choice.

> I doubt you are going to get an unbiased answer from anybody; everybody wants to believe they made the right choice.

I'm not sure where choices come in here. I specifically mentioned a mixed team; the choices have already been made, so the performance of the existing team is what I'm asking about.

As far as not getting an unbiased answer, that's why I'm asking HN at large -- hopefully there are enough people in enough environments to give an interesting and informative combination of answers. :)

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#18

Post by throwawaymath »

account2 wrote: post #2

I have several questions regarding this: 1) Do FAANG companies hire non-PhDs for machine learning positions? Most seem to require a MS or PhD 2) What are the interview questions like at FAANG companies for machine learning positions? Is the interview different if you don't have a PhD? 3) For non-PhDs applying, what are the math requirements for the job? 4) For people that have a PhD working in ML at a FAANG, do you f…

> 1) Do FAANG companies hire non-PhDs for machine learning positions? Most seem to require a MS or PhD

That depends on what you mean by "machine learning positions" and what your bar for normalcy is. For research roles - these generally have distinct titles like "Research Scientist" or "Quantitative Researcher" - it is extremely difficult to get an interview without a PhD, let alone an offer. It happens, but rarely, because there are many capable people with PhDs and other relevant experience applying for the same roles.

If instead you relax the bar to also include software engineers who work with research scientists on model implementation and optimization then yes, people with "only" an MSc are routinely hired for these positions. These engineers are still credited on papers published as a result of their collaboration, and they still need to have a firm understanding of how the models work. The difference is that they don't tend to have leadership roles and don't develop novel theory - they are responsible for supporting the core research team and helping the research output become production ready software.

Both of these types of roles require strong coding skills, but the "hard" research roles require significantly stronger mastery of linear algebra and probability theory. As an example, compare the roles for Research Scientist[1] and Research Engineer[2] at Facebook. You'll find a similar bifurcation at other industry labs like Google, Microsoft and IBM.

If you have the opportunity to do either and you're optimizing your career for wealth maximization or research impact, it's better to obtain a role as a research scientist. That being said most PhDs do not end up at Google Brain or FAIR, so it's not a cut and dry decision. You can't just choose to trade n years of your life and an easier-to-obtain role on the periphery of research for the ability to do theoretical research at the best tech companies in the world later on.

________________________________

1. https://www.facebook.com/careers/jobs/a0I1H00000Mp2ZCUAZ/

2. https://www.facebook.com/careers/jobs/a0I1H00000LJm3MUAT/

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#19

Post by jccalhoun »

I have a phd in a Communication-realted field. I like my job at a community college but I am over-educated for it. However, I burned out on trying to get published. My advice is if you have doubt about going to grad school then don't. There are tons of people competing for every job. There is no guarantee you will get a job and there are fewer and fewer tenure track jobs. I was lucky to get out of adjuncting hell and I was lucky that I don't have a spouse or kids so I could afford to live on 24k for a few years.

Re: What You Need to Know Before Considering a PhD

#20

Post by InAnEmergency »

chrisseaton wrote: post #6
michaericalribo wrote: post #4

This gets it right, I think. And I say that as someone who does not regret taking five years to get a PhD. A PhD is too long, narrow, and frustrating to do just to get a slightly fatter paycheck. For some reason, that deep dive clicked with me, and I’m grateful for all the personal growth that came from that. But for the vast majority of people, I think it could easily end as an exercise in frustration.

Five years is a super long PhD. If you can get it done in two or three years it makes more sense.

Five years is not that long for a PhD in the US.

I took eight years but I also got married, worked full time, and started a company before I finished. By the time I graduated, the CS department had started taking a much firmer stance on timelines, with a desire for most students to graduate within six years or sooner.

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