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The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

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151–160 of 374 posts

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reminded of my old boss, a native Italian who had spent 7 years getting American citizenship. He was vehemently anti-immigrant and thought anything that helped "illegal immigrants" was a bad thing. Your opinion and his are, to me, examples of one of the worst forms of greed: greed with a reasonable excuse. It is rational and I cannot really fault you for feeling that way, but this form of greed makes fixing the p…

It is justice, not greed, that people have to pay back money they borrow.

No. You're turning people into serfs for the better part of their adult life for a decision they made as a teenager. That's not justice, that's cruelty.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#152
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I must say, as someone who made quite a few sacrifices to pay off my school debt, I'll be pretty miffed if less responsible people from my same generation get a break on their loans.

If someone majored in a degree that didn’t have great career prospects, should they suffer for that? Is college only for job training, or is it for something a little different? I’m not criticizing your viewpoint; as another commenter said, I understand some of the reasons you may hold this view. However, I do not feel that people who majored in, say, English - against their own likely knowledge that it would be diff…

> However, I do not feel that people who majored in, say, English ... should suffer because of the debt they incurred.

Why shouldn't they face the responsibility for the decisions they made?

That's the crux of the argument, really. Either people are forced to be responsible for their actions or they aren't...doubly so with student loans since they never really go away.

And I'm saying this as someone who got a "worthless" degree (back in the '90s when college was reasonably cheap) and has been in default on one of my loans for well over a decade but has never once asked anyone else to "suffer" over my decision to party, err...pursue a degree without a clear career track. Sure, it would be really, really nice if the good taxpayers subsidized my slacker lifestyle by forgiving my loan but I'm not holding my breath.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First of all students need a way to declare bankruptcy. While I'm not for or against such a policy, I find it intriguing you think bankruptcy is free market ideology adjacent.

That's basic economics of lending. If X% of people default then you have to increase interest rates to cover the people that default. The increased interest rate will dissuade students from taking on degrees with lesser economic prospects. It's like adding back pressure or load shedding to a distributed system. It is better to drop or delay requests than let the entire system collapse under it's own weight.

Higher tuition (skyrocketing tuition, actually) should have already done that

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#154

Perspective (anecdote) from a high school student: There is a real push for college. It's an unstated assumption that you're going to go, and the topic of debt seems to be passively avoided ("Don't worry, it'll all work out!"). We receive a grade for the college application process, so you can't not apply. College is still probably a good deal the majority of the time I think, but I wish there was some acknowledgemen…

> College is still probably a good deal the majority of the time I think, but I wish there was some acknowledgement that it is less important in some fields than others.

I'm certainly not advising you what to do - I don't know you at all and you didn't ask - but speaking generally about the issue: I think the unstated premise that college is vocational training for careers is very misguided. College is the acquisition of knowledge, of cognitive skills, and of a personal foundation for life, and life is so much more than career, and you'll probably have several careers. In fact, I'd argue that if you are using college to train for a specific career, you're wasting college. The world is so much bigger than Python or JavaScript, or even than computer science fundamentals. There are so many more issues, so many great thinkers and ideas to learn from, and so many critical thinking skills to acquire, 4 years isn't enough.

IMHO, theory is worth the time, a much broader understanding of the world is worth the time, JavaScript you can learn outside of college.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#155
post #17

Still being in college, so many people I know just assume debt is no issue. It's not a concept that hits close to home, and most people seem to be fine with repaying them forever, like buying a new phone every 2 years or a new car every 3. I've never known anyone who couldn't get a loan, no matter how bad their grades or weak their employment after college looks. I don't really understand how that works and who would…

>>> I've never known anyone who couldn't get a loan, no matter how bad their grades or weak their employment after college looks.

Student loans are risk free for the lender and very profitable. They will always be granted.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#156
post #107
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually agree with you on this. Despite getting accepted to many top-tier universities (Berkeley, Yale, Rice), I chose to go to an in-state school with a generous scholarship so I could come out of school with very little loans. I sacrificed going to a really great school like Berkeley (and living in California!) so I would save money and not end up in so much debt. While I fully think that debt is a nondesirable…

Thanks, nice to have a single person agree with me. That said, I also agree that my personal situation (be it through luck or responsible behavior) now makes it possible for me to be generous to others, and I'm certainly happy to pay extra in taxes, to an extent. I guess what bothers me is just this sense of entitlement of people that originated from my same social stratum who now argue "the game was rigged" when I n…

Id say the game is rigged from the get go. Between age 18-21 we say that people are not responsible enough to even buy alcohol, but apparently they are responsible enough to sign up for loans that take decades if ever to pay off. Then on top of it weve made the loans impossible to discharge under any circumstances _and_ we have an entire system that tells children their entire life that you go to college or you will have a terrible life. How is any of this not rigging the system?

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#157
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a defensible reason to allow the whole system to come crashing down.

3 questions 1/ Are there solutions on the table where the cure isn't worse than the disease? That money has been spent, it came from somewhere. Can it just be vanquished without repercussions? 2/ Objectively, what is the likelihood that continuing the status quo crashes the system? 3/ What are the long term consequences from potential solutions? E.g., if current debts are forgiven/cancelled, would lenders refuse to l…

1. The money is in the form of a loan, which by virtue of our fractional reserve system, is created upon signing a promissory note. This is the basic form of money creation in the United States. Repaying the loan extinguishes the principal balance and "destroys" that money. However, interest owed remains and the debtor must "seek" out that money in the economy (which, consequently for many people, is in the form of another debt from some other person or company).

2. An economy where a major portion of debtors are unable to discharge their loans (due to the laws presuming student loans as ineligible for discharge), debtors will fall into a cycle of inability to pay debt, inability to qualify for a home, apartment or a vehicle, and potential inability to qualify for a job (credit check) and become increasingly dependent on government programs to stay afloat. This can put a strain on government resources beyond what a simple bankruptcy would do, which is the forced cancellation (discharge) of a debt. Basically, the cost of a bankruptcy (to the economy) is smaller than the cost of an otherwise capable judgment-debtor on welfare/Medicade/SNAP/others.

3. Private student loans, which are effectively no different than unsecured debt, should be presumed dischargeable in bankruptcy. Federal student loans are actually structured quite nicely, except many debtors do not understand the complexities of the multiple forms of loans they carry (perkins, plus, university-managed, subsidized, unsubsidized, private) and rules for one loan type do not necessarily apply to the other.

Colleges would actually benefit from student loan reform, since they could better educate students and parents on standardized loan packages, rather than the large array of loan options available now.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None; absolutely none. Term limits are a terrible idea because to gain experience with politics and credibility within the establishment requires years. Institute term limits lobbyists gain all the power as they are the only ones who have the clout to get legislation passed. You'd need to institute campaign finance reform and ban lobbyists before you could start terms limits. But these are just both band aids on Amer…

I can't express how wrong this response is. Term limits are necessary, there should be no such thing as a "career politician". A politician should be required to have actual skills, and not just a nice smile. Experience with politics is meaningless, there should be NO establishment. It is always the new guy who reveals the truth to the people, which is a good thing. Experience only results in being able to lie to the…

This is such a strange sentiment to me. You would never hire an amateur Carpenter to work on your house. You would never hire an amateur DBA to build your company's key data architecture. But you want the people who run the country to be amateurs?

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#159
post #130
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, nice to have a single person agree with me. That said, I also agree that my personal situation (be it through luck or responsible behavior) now makes it possible for me to be generous to others, and I'm certainly happy to pay extra in taxes, to an extent. I guess what bothers me is just this sense of entitlement of people that originated from my same social stratum who now argue "the game was rigged" when I n…

It isn't that the game is rigged. It is that it assumes rational actors are making wise decisions about their future. Someone who carefully selects a degree that they know will let them pay back their loans is who the system is designed for. There are a lot of people who aren't behaving that way. The numbers are high enough that this isn't just a matter of some people having some hardship. This a large number of peop…

When it comes to society level discussion it seems that it is often assumed that people make irrational decisions. I am not sure that is true. For a lot of people it makes sense to take a chance on something unknown rather than to face likely failure. That is presumably also why they think the game is rigged. Because if you ask the average person who didn't go to college they probably aren't doing particularly well either.

Re: The Student Debt Problem Is Worse Than We Imagined

#160
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somebody getting a break doesn’t bring you down, it just brings them up. I’m sorry you had to pay off your loans. I’m paying about $100,000 myself. But even if I didn’t get amnesty, I’d rather not have one more graduate who, like me, has sincerely considered whether simply being dead would be easier to deal with. And there are a lot of people like that. I’d rather be in debt forever if it means that subsequent multit…

Own your choices. You decided to go to college as opposed to not going. You decided to go to the college that you did in favors of others. You knew the cost of tuition and room and board. You knew how much you would have to borrow to afford the college you chose. You voluntarily borrowed the money that you did. You knew the amount of $ that you would owe. You knew the payment schedule. You had a reasonable idea of ho…

My loans were based on the LIBOR rate. That rate was shown to be manipulated by many banks[1]. Did I chose to do this going into the agreement for the loan? Did I get the chance to leave the agreement after the rate was manipulated, or to not pay back interest for the portion of time it was manipulated?

Personally, my loans are almost all paid off and any wiping of student loan debt would barely affect me. I can still see how letting the system continue as it is does nothing but funnel money from the public, and students in particular, into the banks pockets. I don't see why we need to protect the banks from any negative results when they have actively subverted the rules

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libor_scandal

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