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Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

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Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#211

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I don't mind answering what I can. Of course the answers are limited by my actual life :-) Fluent in Japanese: There is a difference between fluency and proficiency. I am very fluent in Japanese. If I want to say something, I open my mouth and the words come out. If someone is talking to me, I understand what they are saying -- unless I don't, in which case I ask them to explain and then I do. I'm not very proficient…

Would you raise a daughter in Japan? I've heard from a Japanese-American girl that moved back to Japan around age 9 that living growing up there as a woman was terrible, especially having been exposed to the relatively egalitarian American society.

The culture is totally different. Gender roles in Japan are much more defined. Especially growing up in the US and moving to Japan, I think it would be hard -- regardless of gender. For example, young men have to get their career going in their early 20s and often are stressed out to the max. Young women, on the other hand have a lot more options. Like I said, it's just different.

To answer your question, I'd have no problem raising children of any gender here. I also really like the school system, which I found a lot better than what I grew up with in Canada. Again, very different -- you need to know where you are going by the time you are applying to high school, but then the kids are raised to understand that.

I don't really know what to tell you. Usually people from one culture have aspects of it that they think are really good. Other people from other cultures may actually have a completely different point of view of it. In some ways women in the US (and Canada) are in a situation where it's actually difficult to take on the same role that their mothers or grandmothers did. I've had American colleagues lecture Japanese students about how they absolutely should not waste their lives with the goal of being a stay at home care taker. When I asked those same colleagues if they would say the same thing to a boy who wanted to be a stay at home care giver, they said "Of course not" -- apparently not aware of the double standard.

This is the kind of culture clash that I see, especially between American people and Japanese people. Both sides see their point of view as being absolutely correct. For Japanese women, feminism is generally considered to be a dirty word. It's not that they don't want fair treatment, but they find the way that it is pushed as being completely alien to their culture -- to the point of being morally wrong.

Long story short, a Japanese girl does not have the same values as an American girl. Neither does a Japanese boy have the same values as an American boy. And while both sides will defend their moral choices, they are dramatically different. If you raise your children in Japan to be Japanese they will generally be happy -- I rarely see unhappy children where I live (male or female). The same goes in America. Mix and match? That's where you can get into a lot of trouble.

I hope that answers your question. It's a super difficult one to answer because there are a lot of unspoken assumptions. In many ways Japanese culture is literally morally wrong when taken in the context of American view points. The opposite is also true, as hard as it is for both sides to recognise. I'm in the middle where I can see and understand both, but it's hard to respond to questions (from either side) without evoking hatred. The one thing that American culture and Japanese culture has in common is that they are both intensely moral cultures. There is a right and a wrong and very little middle ground. The problem is that what's right and what's wrong is often very different.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#212

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I was waiting for a response like this so I wouldn’t have to type it myself. Almost everything that looks simple about Japanese at the beginning is complex and deep underneath. For example, one of the things I was told early on is that pronunciation is easy, since all the sounds already exist in English. First, that’s not even true. Second, if it’s so easy, why have I never met a foreigner with an accent that even I,…

Here's an example of close-to-native pronunciation: https://m.youtube.com/user/Dogen He gives valuable pronunciation lessons on Patreon.

Dogen is fantastic. I’ve never met anyone on his level in real life and I’m using his lessons to improve, myself :)

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#213

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Exactly. People can understand each other just fine without explaining which word they are using in Kanji. Korea was able to jettison Chinese logograms (Hanja) entirely from its education standards, and the only reason Kanji remains is due to tradition instead of any inherent superiority over the syllabaries.

Actually this is just incorrect. Spoken Japanese is much more ambiguous. There's a reason subtitles are ubiquitous here. Americans who didn't understand the language tried and failed to get rid of kanji after world war 2. The langauge just does not work without them. Additionally spoken Japanese uses pitch accent to distinguish homophones such as 雨 and 飴. Long strings of kana are difficult to read period. Native Japa…

Pitch accent isn't necessary either. Just like English, Japanese has many different regional accents that sound different, yet people from one region can still understand people from another.

The difference is that people write with more homophones than they speak with, just as written English is different from spoken English (more subtle word choice for brevity), but that is not necessary for communication, and written language can adapt just like children's books which don't use Kanji.

Hanja worked fine in Korea, and there still remain a contingent who insist on it, just like there remain people who insist that Kanji is necessary. The fact that people born blind can speak and understand both languages shows this to be a lie.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#214

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> Kanji / hanzi is absolutely not a travesty. In fact, Japanese would be nearly unusable without it (in my opinion). How is it possible to communicate in speech?

Exactly. People can understand each other just fine without explaining which word they are using in Kanji. Korea was able to jettison Chinese logograms (Hanja) entirely from its education standards, and the only reason Kanji remains is due to tradition instead of any inherent superiority over the syllabaries.

> without explaining which word they are using in Kanji.

Actually if you spend any length of time in Japan as a speaker, you will notice native speakers writing kanji on their hands to figure out words their interlocutors are using ("wait, you mean this 'kou'? or this one?). If people are not physically present (e.g. phone) you'll hear them describe the radicals (components) of a kanji or ask "is it the 'kou' in 'kousoku' or the one in ...?

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#215
post #152

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> two [...] alphabets in Japanese They are syllabaries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabary > distinguish between Japanese and foreign words There are occasionally Japanese words written in katakana (e.g. ラーメン) and foreign words written in hiragana (e.g. たばこ). Also, katakana can be used to emphasize Japanese words (like WE DO in English) (e.g. キミ). > Kanji script [...] is a travesty left over from cave paintings…

AFAIK ラーメン is not a Japanese word. It is Chinese "Lo mein". 中華そば is a effectively a synonym for ラーメン. Also no Japanese restaurant guide lists ラーメン under Japanese cuisine. They either list them on their own or under Chinese cuisine. I'd say one of the hardest parts is the multiple ways to say every kanji with almost no rules, just memorization. Example: 行, 実行, 行う, 膝行, 売れ行き or 先生, 一生, 芝生, 往生, 千生り, 埴生, 平生, 弥生, 蓬生, 生り, 相…

Kanji were imported into Japan from the continent via scholars or printed material. Many of the different pronunciations happened because kanji came during different time periods or from different parts of China where words were pronounced differently.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#216
post #12

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Can I ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind. Are you fluent in Japanese? Have there been any major instances of discrimination at work? I know you’ve been there 10 years, but is this a place you’d be happy for the rest of your life to start a family and potentially retire? Please ignore if any of these are too uncomfortable or invasive.

Also not the parent but I have been in Japan for three years now (but leaving to move to my home country soon). I'll share my experience. I had basically no truly "negative" experiences based on my race. I am fluent (understand 95% - 98% of what's going on, including complex convos about tech stacks and so on (I work in software engineering). Sometimes people speak (usually not very good) English to me, assuming I do…

Thanks for the insight! Glad you had a great experience and I’m sure others will find this helpful if they decide to make the move too. Looks like if you use the other advice here and get the decent paying developer job, it’ll be a great move.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#217
post #33
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask you a few questions, if you don’t mind. Are you fluent in Japanese? Have there been any major instances of discrimination at work? I know you’ve been there 10 years, but is this a place you’d be happy for the rest of your life to start a family and potentially retire? Please ignore if any of these are too uncomfortable or invasive.

Not the parent but same situation. Been here 11 years. A lot of people can get around without speaking Japanese, but I don’t recommend it. You’ll get a much more meaningful and deeper experience out of living here if you can converse with everyone. Randomly stopping and bullshitting with a bored old guy for an hour can be quite fun! Sadly the developer pay here is pretty dismal, even more so if you come with US expec…

Thanks for the reply! I like how everyone’s experiences in this thread have many similarities. Speaking Japanese is important, life there is great but developer pay is poor. There is some good advice on finding higher paying jobs here that might make you change your mind, but I agree with what you’re saying. I think this is definitely a possible move in the future for me.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#218

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If they are a higher risk, it's just risk mitigation. If English teacher foreigners are 25x more likely to break their lease than a Japanese person making the same salary, then it's not worth renting to them for the same price. You can call it whatever you want, but it's part of being a foreigner. If you don't like it, then stay in the country of your citizenship/heritage.

Replace foreigners with "black people"

I'll just note for posterity that I was arguing that these stereotypes about 'foreign people' are just as toxic as stereotypes about 'black people', not that I believe in these stereotypes about black people or foreigners.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#219
post #209

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What kinds of places are you and the grandparent looking for? I’ve visited tons of places in Japan and talked to plenty of friends and coworkers about their apartment searches and never heard of one place with a foreigner restriction (including ten years ago and more recently). Are you talking about super countryside or something? My searches have always been in Tokyo.

Tokyo, 1~2LDK (~60m2) range. I moved about 6 times for various reason, including pure curiosity. Everytime I had the issue. Now, the vendor might not explicit the restrictions. Sometimes we talked for 10~20 min, I ask for the full binder of offers to look for myself and am told some of them won’t be available. Or some of the agency people woud pre-filter the offer they hand over, and when you ask to see some they rem…

Oh okay, thanks for elaborating! Yeah, most of the people I know looking for places work at a famous multinational, so I guess that explains why I haven't seen the issue even when self-selecting places from online listings. And other friends might be just accepting the pre-filtered options from their agent.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#220
post #206

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> Interesting, by the World Value Survey figures South Korea looks worse than Japan overall. 34.1% of people mentioned that they would not want a person of a different race as a neighbour, as opposed to 22.3% in Japan. Is that enough? Other countries are more racist - East/South Asia is in general extremely tribal and racist. Thai people hate Vietnamese, Koreans and Chinese HATE Japanese, and Chinese people look down…

> Like I said, I'm not saying other countries aren't racist. I'm saying that the Japanese are incredibly racist towards other Asians. You have supplied no data to support this statement, beyond anecdotes. The data I've seen doesn't support the notion that the Japanese are "incredibly racist" against anyone at all.

According to the xenophobia study, even people under 29 in Japan are twice as likely as the entire US population to object to the presence of neighbors of a different race. Older people are four times as likely to object. And with a UN observer saying the racism is primarily directed towards other Asian people which is more than an "anecdote" despite your assertion since he was sent there to assess this specifically, I have to say that I'm not quite sure what you're saying. How do you design a study about the targets of racism that people answer? You're asking for data that has an extraordinarily low probably of existing and trumpeting the fact that of course you are right, because you insist on numbers, any numbers.
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