Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream • Hacker News Board

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#171

Post by emchamp1 » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 5:05 PM UTC

devilsbabe wrote: post #48

lmiller1990 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also not the parent but I have been in Japan for three years now (but leaving to move to my home country soon). I'll share my experience. I had basically no truly "negative" experiences based on my race. I am fluent (understand 95% - 98% of what's going on, including complex convos about tech stacks and so on (I work in software engineering). Sometimes people speak (usually not very good) English to me, assuming I do…

I've heard that salaries are on average much lower but companies offering competitive wages do exist. Like you said, you will have an easier time fitting in and earn more if you work for an international company rather than a Japanese one. I'm a software engineer in an American tech company's Tokyo office with 1 yoe and have around ¥13M total comp.

Wow, would you be willing to disclose what companies offer that much in Tokyo? Especially for 1 year of experience thats insane.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#172

Post by tokyodude » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 5:08 PM UTC

nayuki wrote: post #152

RobertRoberts wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think any techie would appreciate the consitency of two of the three alphabets in Japanese. (Hiragana and Katakana) The very fact that both of these alphabets are the exact same phonetic pronunciations, but written slightly different to visually distinguish them, is the only complication. But that they are designed specifically to distinguish between Japanese and foreign words is just brilliant. Their Kanji…

> two [...] alphabets in Japanese They are syllabaries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabary > distinguish between Japanese and foreign words There are occasionally Japanese words written in katakana (e.g. ラーメン) and foreign words written in hiragana (e.g. たばこ). Also, katakana can be used to emphasize Japanese words (like WE DO in English) (e.g. キミ). > Kanji script [...] is a travesty left over from cave paintings…

AFAIK ラーメン is not a Japanese word. It is Chinese "Lo mein". 中華そば is a effectively a synonym for ラーメン. Also no Japanese restaurant guide lists ラーメン under Japanese cuisine. They either list them on their own or under Chinese cuisine.

I'd say one of the hardest parts is the multiple ways to say every kanji with almost no rules, just memorization. Example: 行, 実行, 行う, 膝行, 売れ行き or 先生, 一生, 芝生, 往生, 千生り, 埴生, 平生, 弥生, 蓬生, 生り, 相生, 下生え, 生える

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#173

Post by kalleboo » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 5:08 PM UTC

ousta wrote: post #96

xaranke wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you comment on whether racism is still a thing in Japanese society?

There isnt a mono-ethnic country in the world where you won't face racism much worse than in multicultural societies as you will always be different. People don't call it racism there. its normal for you not to be treated like a japanese as you re not one. and don't worry they will make you feel that everyday. especially when they will see that you speak japanese and that you re not a tourist

> especially when they will see that you speak japanese and that you re not a tourist

I've read this many times before that Japanese love a tourist but when they learn you're a resident somehow they turn on you. Not once seen this happen or heard of an incident of it happening to anyone I know.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#174

Post by ericdykstra » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

ericdykstra wrote: post #151

yathern wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If in the US, a black man is 2X more likely to have committed a murder than a white man, is it not worth associating with them? This is absolutely the root of racism. Acting out of fear and self-preservation in a self-sustaining loop. The most insidious kind of racism to me isn't the mindless hatred that you sometimes see. It's the thoughtful, logical-sounding explanations that justify the behavior.

I don’t really care who you choose to associate or not associate with regardless of the reason. If a landlord doesn’t want me because I’m a foreigner, that’s fine with me. If I ask why and he explains the risk profile, I can offer to pay for my 2-year lease up front to mitigate the risk.

If the landlord won’t take 2 years payment up front, that’s her prerogative and I’ll find a different place.

I don’t understand the obsession with wanting to force people into economic transactions they don’t want to participate in.

Fortunately for me, I’ve literally never been denied an apartment or a service or anything at all due to my race in Japan. But hypothetically, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Discrimination laws are a violation of freedom of association and they increase the cost of transactions because people can’t state their prejudices publicly.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#175

Post by devilsbabe » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

laurieg wrote: post #85

devilsbabe wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that salaries are on average much lower but companies offering competitive wages do exist. Like you said, you will have an easier time fitting in and earn more if you work for an international company rather than a Japanese one. I'm a software engineer in an American tech company's Tokyo office with 1 yoe and have around ¥13M total comp.

Any advice on finding a position like this? 13M JPY is a large salary for Japan.

devjobs.jp is a good place to start. American companies like Microsoft, Amazon, Google and Indeed pay well. I know a front end engineer with a few years of experience who got an offer from Mercari for 17M.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#176

Post by tokyodude » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

ericdykstra wrote: post #147

throwaway936396 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but I really strongly disagree with this. I've studied Japanese for 6 years, Chinese for 3 and am currently in Japan. Some of your comments come off as extremely ignorant. For example, neither the kana syllabries nor the logographic kanji system are alphabets. The distinction between Hiragana and Katakana is more of a distinction between emphasis on sound (Katakana) and normal writing of words. Katakana is use…

I was waiting for a response like this so I wouldn’t have to type it myself. Almost everything that looks simple about Japanese at the beginning is complex and deep underneath. For example, one of the things I was told early on is that pronunciation is easy, since all the sounds already exist in English. First, that’s not even true. Second, if it’s so easy, why have I never met a foreigner with an accent that even I,…

I think you need to do this blind folded. If you see someone is a foreigner you'll believe you're hearing an accent. If you had to do it without seeing them I think you'd find there are plenty of foreigners that have native level accents.

I've gotten in taxis more than once at night, gave the guy directions, had a conversation, and then when he finally stopped and turned around to get the fare nearly jumped out of his seat because he was startled he had been talking to a foreigner the whole time. That's happened at least 3 times.

I'm not trying to brag, it's just my experience. I know others that can do the same.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#177

Post by RobertRoberts » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 5:16 PM UTC

throwaway936396 wrote: post #135

RobertRoberts wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think any techie would appreciate the consitency of two of the three alphabets in Japanese. (Hiragana and Katakana) The very fact that both of these alphabets are the exact same phonetic pronunciations, but written slightly different to visually distinguish them, is the only complication. But that they are designed specifically to distinguish between Japanese and foreign words is just brilliant. Their Kanji…

Sorry, but I really strongly disagree with this. I've studied Japanese for 6 years, Chinese for 3 and am currently in Japan. Some of your comments come off as extremely ignorant. For example, neither the kana syllabries nor the logographic kanji system are alphabets. The distinction between Hiragana and Katakana is more of a distinction between emphasis on sound (Katakana) and normal writing of words. Katakana is use…

>"Sorry, but I really strongly disagree with this"

You disagree that I think something is easy? Is it possible for you to provide evidence that I am wrong that I think it's easy?

I know very little Japanese and I was able to visit there and have a great time. Again, multiple relatives that are American that don't have a hard time in Japan speaking with people there.

I had a great time conversing and talking with people. If it's hard for you, maybe it's just personal or your needs are very specific.

Just comparing the i-before-e-rule (except all the exceptions to the exceptions) compared to Japanese, and there you have it.

Conversational Japanese is way easier (my expeirence) than English (many Japanese friends over decades and many conversations with my relatives they had with Japanese)

Just because it's hard for you, and you can technically explain why it should be hard, doesn't mean it is for everyone else.

Lastly, Japanese seem to love it when Americans care enough to speak their language and were impressed with my limited abilities and were a joy to communicate with. Even if I stink at it.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#178

Post by devilsbabe » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 5:17 PM UTC

emchamp1 wrote: post #171

devilsbabe wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that salaries are on average much lower but companies offering competitive wages do exist. Like you said, you will have an easier time fitting in and earn more if you work for an international company rather than a Japanese one. I'm a software engineer in an American tech company's Tokyo office with 1 yoe and have around ¥13M total comp.

Wow, would you be willing to disclose what companies offer that much in Tokyo? Especially for 1 year of experience thats insane.

Like I mentioned in another comment, I've heard that companies listed on devjobs.jp pay well. In general companies like Microsoft, Amazon, Google and Indeed try to match their salaries as they're competing for the same pool of talent. I work for one of those. I know an engineer with 3-4yoe who got a very good offer from Mercari (~17M)

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#179

Post by RobertRoberts » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

nayuki wrote: post #162

ericdykstra wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was waiting for a response like this so I wouldn’t have to type it myself. Almost everything that looks simple about Japanese at the beginning is complex and deep underneath. For example, one of the things I was told early on is that pronunciation is easy, since all the sounds already exist in English. First, that’s not even true. Second, if it’s so easy, why have I never met a foreigner with an accent that even I,…

Agreed with everything you said. Japanese pronunciation is easy to hit in the right ballpark because Japanese uses a near-subset of sounds found in English and other common languages. But refining your Japanese pronunciation takes effort and is not something to shrug off. Anyway, here are some examples where I think English-speaking Japanese learners butcher their pronunciation: * し is [ɕi] (tongue fronter), not [ʃi]…

And as an American, none of these were an issue. None.

They understand me just fine, and the details don't matter as long as they can understand you.

It seems like you saying that having an accent in a foreign language equates to not being able to speak it properly.

Edit: Getting down votes for saying this, so I will clarify.

If you reversed your arguments, claiming that the Japanese can't pronounce English sounds, you would come across as borderline racist.

So I feel like arguing about the minutiae of sound detracts from whether or not the language as a whole is harder/easier to understand.

Re: Some Techies Are Shunning Silicon Valley for the Japanese Dream

#180

Post by RobertRoberts » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 5:25 PM UTC

throwaway936396 wrote: post #156

aaronblohowiak wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the main difference between your post and the post you are replying to is how high-level or low-level your analysis is. I dont see many disagreements between you and the OP, your post added a lot of detail which is all correct but none of which violates the spirit of the parent. Eg what is an alphabet vs character vs whatever.. in a very colloquial sense, the list of graphemes used to represent the language i…

I respectfully disagree. As someone with knowledge on the subject, the post I responded to was just incorrect. Alphabet is a specific term with a specific meaning and connotations. It's factually incorrect and misleading to call anything other than romaji that Japanese uses an Alphabet. Very little intuition about alphabets applies because they're just not alphabets. The issues with Kanji are unqiue to Japanese. Chin…

In commonly spoken English we have one word for alphabet, and that is alphabet. Just like a doctor can say "oesophagus" for "throat" doesn't mean saying "throat" is wrong.

Kanji is an alphabet to us, so it hiragana and katakana in every Japanese class I took in America.

The wikipedia article on hiragana[0] call it "syllabaries", which may be technically accurate, I would consider this pedantic for the average American. And alphabet is accurate enough.

>The issues with Kanji are unqiue to Japanese. Chinese does not have them.

First sentence from wikipedia: [1]

"Kanji are the adopted logographic Chinese characters that are used in the Japanese writing system"

I am an amateur, and I made that clear with my post, I only know what I have been told and experienced, and I stated nothing inaccurate or out of the ordinary regarding Japanese language from the American perspective.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiragana

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanji